Super Grover

Hey, @Mamakin, thank you for your message. Could you upload a track exposing the problems you described? I also own this joystick and checked the AFCS behaviour right before the release and confirmed that everything was working correctly. We need to start by identifying if the problem is a bug in the code or some problem with how the software runs on your end.

Thank you, @schmiefel. I watched the videos, and they look as if no trim input has been applied. I'll investigate the tracks and let you know about my findings. Unfortunately, I don't own any Virpil joystick, but we have other team members who do, so we should be able to verify everything. The only thing missing is probably the screenshot of what you assigned to your trim commands in DCS - could you please upload it?

Yes, that's a feature we can and will add - just a 1:1 animation without any smoothing. Similarly, we want to add it to the pilot body, which, when smoothened, may cause unpleasant sensations in VR for some. I can't promise the timeline, but such an option will undoubtedly appear.

Actually, everyone would lose, and I'll explain it in detail soon.

If you use FFB, the stick forces should centre the stick at around that 1/2 forward position for cruise conditions. I mean, you shouldn't need to move the stick, but the neutral position won't be in the geometrical centre of the axis range. Please note that the trim moves the neutral position of the stick and does nothing else - as in real aircraft. From your description, I can see that your observation is not how it should work. You shouldn't need to touch a non-FFB stick when applying trim to get an instant effect on the stabilator. Could you please do a short test flight where you exhibit the problem and send us the track so we can investigate the underlying calculations and conditions?

I'm sorry you feel this way. We, also on behalf of the F-4E, respect you and your position in every possible way.

Oh yes. I mean that we have more direct access and more details, which we can use to control the experience and crank it up to 11.

Okey, dokey. I mean, that's doable. Just please don't ask me to create a user interface for that now. Let's start by working with a config file when prototyping these experimental features. Feel free to brainstorm here on the list of what factors could be included. I imagine we could do the same as in some driving/racing sims, where certain features are transferred to the wheel, even though you wouldn't have the same feedback in the actual car. I mean, I'm open to your input and ideas.

Oh, I'm sorry. I was a bit busy dealing with the fixing, and now, when I read it, it doesn't sound the way I wanted it to sound. What I mean is that some topics are controversial, and sometimes, we may misunderstand how things are simulated because we might be missing the essential details of the implementation. And when we try building the picutre of the systems without those details, that picture may indeed seem wrong. That's why I wanted to thank everyone for participating in this discussion because, by this, you express how important it is for you to have the ultimate realism and the best experience with the module. I just wanted to reassure everyone that we've had the same concerns that you have and that we worked on addressing them from the initial stages of the development.

People have prejudices and react allergically to some topics. This is precisely what we can see in this thread.

I'm afraid you might be simplifying the understanding of the underlying mechanics too much and, hence, getting wrong answers because the starting point uses incorrect assumptions. I'll prepare a longer write-up explaining some of the system's details, but for now, I want to reassure you and everyone that everything we did in this matter was to increase realism, not the other way around.

There is no direct relation between trim 3 units nose down and the stabilator position. It's always a function of speed, air density, G-load, weight and, of course, pilot input. I'd suspect that most of the formation photos are taken at moderate speeds, resulting in a slightly leading edge down stabilator position.

@kablamoman, thank you for expressing your opinion—we value every user's opinion and feedback. However, we disagree with your arguments and won't be able to apply them to our F-4E in the near future. Such changes would break the module's fundamental features, and we think they could adversely impact the quality of our product. Nevertheless, we will consider your opinion and try to address all the points you raised in our future updates and products.

I don't think the pedal shaker is transferred to FFB shaking - we overlook that they could be connected. Currently, the pedal shaker only emits the shaking sound. I'll make sure this gets fixed quickly, and it will appear as a special option to transfer pedal shaking to stick vibrations, default to on. Thank you for spotting that!

The big green diamond is your joystick input. The small green diamond is the neutral in-cockpit stick position - this is where the cockpit stick will reset if you recentre your joystick. The orange/red diamond represents the actual cockpit stick position after taking into account all effects, including your joystick input, the feel trim system, force limiting, and blending. This position is transferred to the power actuators moving the control surfaces.

Oh, I never felt that way from you . It's the opposite - I find your contribution very constructive. Coincidently, my message landed just below yours. Sorry for the confusion.

Please note that FFB and non-FFB stick inputs are processed differently. In this topic, I observe that these two are sometimes considered one. Additionally, I wanted to assure you that I spent months analysing control setups in different versions of the F-4, modelling the system, and understanding how the controls impact aircraft behaviour in real life and the flight model in the sim. I can guarantee you that if you look closer at the available flight reports, you'll find that certain aspects of the flight dynamics come not from the aerodynamics but from how the controls closed loop works and how that loop leads to certain types of oscillations. That's why we decided to create a very detailed and innovative simulation of the flight control system for both types of joysticks. I am sure that it brings the feel/experience of the aircraft to another level. However, I understand that this may also feel odd compared with other modules or simulators, but I think it's mainly because this aspect is often overlooked and simplified. Yet, I'm aware that we can still improve certain aspects of this part of the simulation. For example, I want to enhance dampening when trimming for non-FFB joysticks.

The central position is affected by speed (impact pressure), G-force, system inertia, and, when AFCS is enabled, the auto-trim function.

I recommend watching this video:

Yes. Writing off the top of my head, friction is around 6 lbf. Assuming that the reasonable max force when pulling 8-9 G would be 40-60 lbf; and that the full aft deflection on take-off at 220 kt is approximately 10 lbf, you could try to guestimate the ratio and set it accordingly in your hardware settings. I'll search for the precise friction value and let you know when I find it (I know, I've seen it), but it may take a while.

OK. I'll rephrase it. Currently, we have no direct way to control friction from the module in any FFB stick. Nonetheless, we will keep looking for options here.

It wouldn't fall because the friction forces are quite high. Yet, I think it's still a step too far for the current FFB tech to simulate friction.

I'm sorry. I wish I could help, but I don't have the Rhino. Yet. I guess it's about time to line up in the queue for one. I'm still using the old MS Sidewinder FFB 2 for my testing. Nevertheless, I'm sure that we have testers using Rhino who might want to share their settings. With DCS FFB set to off, you won't get the correct neutral position from the F-4E, and probably, the joystick will revert to the default centring force only.

Yes, there is only a sad, plain and a bit weak centering spring for roll.