Dogz

That must be one of the most hilarious things that I have read about Bf-109. A fighter that cannot adapt sufficiently to remain on top - for a fighter that adapted and remained close to the top from Spanish civil war until the end of the WWII. Was there any other plane from that era that managed to do that?

It is obvious that not everybody will be happy about the new situation, but considering the circumstances and the couple of corrections that ED did to their original reward idea, I think it is really a compromise that most people are satisfied with.

What surprises me most, is actually the hostility of some backers towards the lower level backers. Calling them trolls and "not real backers" and so on. I really don't understand the motivation behind it, as if it would be something taken away from the rest. Between the lines can read the message that the lower level backers are accused of being in it just for financial gain. Let's recall how the KS campaign went. Originally everybody (I mean everybody, did not have to be a backer even) was promised three free planes. Everybody. The only thing that lower level backers were getting was "... access to the backer section with weekly development updates, videos ... plus early access to the game’s closed beta." It was only later, when the fully free planes for everybody were taken down from three to one. The level that was marketed to backers as "all flyable aircraft in the game (this will grow with the stretch goals and possibly end up offering a huge value!)" came at $40 backer level. Anyway, I am not here to pick a fight. Just don't understand the hostility of some people towards the lower level backers.

Well done, I applaude that! I hope ED really looks into it and decides to correct that part, then they can really say that they have provided something to all the backers that have helped to make this project happen. And I really do believe that it would be a good business decision for ED as well.

No, could you please explain?

Obviously. Everybody that paid less than $20 and were promised three planes and now get nothing at all. And like I said in one of my previous messages, it is not really about money, I am sure that the $10 or $1 is not so critical amount for these backers, just like it means nothing financially for ED to give these backers the P-51 keys for example. It is more a matter of principle. And also a poorly handled marketing/business case by ED in my opinion, like I explained before.

There are over 300 backers that are getting nothing right now.

In general I think it was a descent move by ED to update this new version of rewards. While probably majority of the backers are not fully satisfied with the outcome, as they won't get even half of what was promised to them originally, they can probably cope with the result, as they get at least something back from taking the risk and being a part of launching the project. That makes it even more surprising that ED again forgot the lowest level backers entirely. And I really can't understand why. It can't be the money. There are only about 300 backers below the $20 level - so for example handing the P-51 keys to them would mean what financially to ED? P-51 was on sale here at $15.99 just a couple of weeks ago. So if 300 people would have bought it at that price, it would have meant sales of $4800. And certainly ED does not expect this group of backers, most of whom probably already have they P-51 keys already anyway, to buy the plane now, if they don't get the keys as a reward. So there are practically no costs involved for ED to hand these backers the P-51 keys. Besides, these backers also have already brought in some money for the project. On the other hand, looking at the marketing side for potential of these backers that ED is now giving nothing... Obviously these 300 people are target group as potential customers for ED, as they have already shown their interest in ED products by backing their project. So why try to drive them away? If they are satisfied or even content about how ED is treating them now and let's say only a third of them decide to buy just one WWII plane, once it is ready that means 100 people times $40 - $50 = $4000 - $5000 income for ED. And that is obviously a super conservative estimation, as I doubt that backers of this project would be content with just one plane (remember, originally one plane was promised for free even for non-backers). Once you get these customers on the hook, they could bring in money for years, when more planes and maps are added to this WWII scenario. And that does not even take into account the positive/negative effect that these people would have within their communities or by exposing new people to DCS products, if they already have the P-51 keys and give the awarded keys to their friends for example that otherwise would not be buying it or they already would have bought it, as it has been on the market for a long time already. So to sum it up: Giving the low level backers the P-51 keys in reality costs nothing for ED, but has the potential for lots of future sales + having a good word around how ED is treating backers. Giving the low level backers nothing certainly makes them lose some of the future sales + bad word going around about how they treated people who had put money into their project. So looking purely from business perspective, why even take the risk to drive away customers, while keeping them content really costs you nothing. And at the end of the day, it is not really about the money. I am sure that these $10 level backers are not starving for giving up that amount, but I am also sure that ED will not be on the verge of bankruptcy either for giving at least something to these backers. It is more a matter of principle.

I totally feel you. While the higher level backers have to give up a lot what was promised to them, they at least get some kind of recognition for being a backer in a project that many had doubts about. Lowest level backers were promised three planes and now get nothing at all, despite backing this RRG-ED joint venture that ED will turn into a profitable product now.

Maybe investment is not fully the correct term, but it is a funding method, with quite clear terms. You put funds in, hoping that the project takes off. if the project does not launch, you are not charged. If the project does launch, you are entitled to get the promised rewards or the money back. Anyway, this discussion is getting off the track from the main point. Why would ED even want to get this kind of bad PR and lose their customers and lots of potential sales in the future, for the same of so little financial gain. This is what I don't really understand.

The analogy is more like follows. Your friend comes together with to ask for money, because you have this nice project in mind that would bring you lots of profits in the future. As a reward for my investment you are promising something that sounds really nice to me. So I agree to give the money to your friend that is the leading organizer for this project. Okay, this friend of yours disappers at some point and leaves the half-done project to you. You are still going to complete this project, because it still will be bringing lots of money to you. But now you tell me that I am crazy to expect anything in return that your friend and you promised me at first, because your friend has left the project ... even thouth you got to keep all the work he had put into it, using the money that I had given to him?

Well, I could refer to my football shoe design dream, if somebody seriously says that ED had nothing to do with the project at all. But that is a different story really. The main point is still, why would ED want to slap their customers in the face? Customers that could continue bringing more money for years to come, but now might turn their backs to the developed because they feel mistreated. Especially considering how relatively small amounts we are talking about, compared to the negative PR effect. ED is using the work that has been at least partially done by the money invested by these same people. It will make and keep the profits on the money that was invested by KS backers.

Maybe getting Su-25T for free with DCS World is also crazy? The difference is that the backers were promised something, no matter how little money they brought. If I promise to bring you something for $10 and once I get the money I walk away and say that you are crazy to believe I can give you something for $10, then this is perfectly normal in your mind? Anyway, the point is not about being able to buy something with $10 or $1, but the principle that people were asked to invest money and in return promised planes, no matter how little money they bring in. "Every dollar helps". Now these people are crazy, because they invested. And another point, we are talking about so little amounts of money here compared to the whole sales of these planes. I really don't understand why would ED want to turn away these customers that are interested in their products and most probably would buy more of them in the future also.

That is why I was offering my advice to ED of what would be a reasonable solution in my opinion. I don't see how talking to Ilya, who has nothing to do with the project any more, except maybe still writing some manuals, would bring any benefit to the situation. So from my original suggestion, every backer gets something, even if it is only 1/3 of the aircraft they were promised originally minus the physical stuff. Adds no extra costs to ED. Has the potential to bring lots of extra money from happy and loyal customers to ED.

I got the impression that ED is running the show now and not Ilya.

Well, this person, who also invested $1 towards the development, was originally promised 3 planes. To say to him that you get nothing now is not really fair either. Could at least give one plane, even an over saturated P-51 one that would not sell much any more or that the backer could already have or if he does not have it, gets as an apetizer to build the desire to buy other planes. There were in total about 300 below-$20 backers - certainly not a big loss for ED anyway. Now if this below-$20 backer gets nothing, he certainly feels cheated and might not want to give any more money to ED and spread the word among his friends to stay away from this developer.

What I think would be reasonable for backers and also actually profitable for ED in the long run, is providing at least some kind of wanted planes to all backers. By this time I think everybody can cope with going without the physical extras, as producing and providing those would add actual cost to the project. Giving out digital copies of planes on the other hand does not add any cost to the project, even if it means less income from sales at first. But it creates happy customers that have already put some money in this project and would most probably continue buying new planes and modules. So I would give out at least some kind of plane for every backer. Remember, originally even $1 backer was promised 3 new planes. $1 - $19: One aircraft instead of 3 promised one. I guess for these could force feed even the over saturated P-51. $20 - $39: Can choose freely one aircraft. $40 - $59: Can choose freely two aircrafts. $60 - $79: Can choose freely three aircrafts. $80 - $99: Can choose freely four aircrafts. $100 - $119: Can choose freely five aircrafts. $120 - above: Get all 6 promised aircrafts. Then can add all this bronze-silver-golden-diamond mentioning and all that extra stuff on top of those as you wish, but at least every backer would get some kind of aircraft, which really was the point of backing, even if most people would get just 1/3 of the planes that they were promised originally. Most probably would buy other planes, too, and bring more money. Overall, means at least some value for all backers and means more money from loyal customers in the long run. It does not cost anything extra to do that for ED, only smaller sales at first. And the amount of total money involved (amount of backers) compared to the whole market that will be buying these planes is small. So the general feeling in the community about how ED is treating it's customers and funders could have significantly bigger financial impact than trying to optimize your income on a small numbers of backers.

I had a silly dream last night. If any happenings in this dream resemble any real life situations, it is totally coincidental. In this dream was a guy that had a vision of creating new football shoes. His name was Ilyushin. So he gathered a team and went to Nike (name changed) headquarters to present his idea: "I plan to create a new new football shoe, called Nike Super Shoe and raise money for it through KickPuncher. I will tell everybody that it is a joint project with Nike. I will provide different levels of rewards to the funders of this project: - Every funder gets a pair of suitable shoes when they are done. - Higher level funders get a Nike football on top of that. - Still higher level get all at the previous level and can also choose Nike basketball or Nike running shoes. - Still higher level get a hard copy of history of football on top of previous. - Top level funders get all the previous and their shoes personally signed by Lionel Messi." Nike replies: "That is cool. Please feel free to use our name to promote your project and use our official website and set up a subforum on our private forum section." So this Ilyushin starts a KickPuncher project to raise the money. Lots of people have doubts about the level of rewards, but after all, it is a Nike-joint-project, with Nike Super Shoe being the name of the project. Some decide to check from Nike homepage, if this is a hoax, but no, on official Nike website this same project is promoted and linked to. They think, well, nowodays are all kinds of marketing and financing systems, cheap airlines, free-to-play games etc. It is cool that Nike has decided to be part of that kind of new approach, let's fund this project. After all, Nike is deeply involved in it and have given their name to be used with the shoe. So the project gets funded. Funders see occasional updates about the shoe design and how their money is being put to use. Then at some point comes an announcement from Nike that this dreamer Ilyushin has been kicked out of the project. But no worries, Nike promises to honor all KickPuncher promises. It takes over the work and results that the funders have invested in and continues with the project. Then about a month later comes a new announcement from Nike that they feel it is better for them financially to back out of the promises. But there is a great new reward system for the funders: - Low level funders get to see a picture of the shoes once they are ready. - Higher level funders get one shoe and can buy the other shoe at full price. - Still higher level funders get a full pair of shoes, size 36. As a bonus, the shoes come with tie-ready shoe laces. So great. All the funders should be really happy, because Nike had no involvement in this project from the beginning and just out of good will is picking it up. Nike had no idea that the product was marketed as Nike Super Shoe or that it was mentioned to be a joint project with Nike and that Nike's official website was used to promote and handle the project as well as having a private forum on Nike's site. Then I woke up ... but it was a nice dream.