Horns
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Everything posted by Horns
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Even if a professional/military version of the sim never existed, a third party actively assisting users in violating the EULA by using it for other than personal use would be a violation. Edit: That sentence was somewhat speculative. I should have said something like "whether a EULA violation occurred is not dependent on available alternatives". The only reason the drama affects the product and consumers is because Razbam decided to stop providing the support they are obliged to. If they have an issue with terms of a contract being met (eg payment) the place for that is the courtroom. Of course, if they don't have the capacity to trade - and if they haven't even had enough to pay their workers, that would mean they've been trading while insolvent for a while - they can (and in my country would probably be required to) put Razbam into administration and allow the system to run its course. At least then users would get clarity on the future of their products - and for that matter, depending on where in the world the action happens, the F-15E module may well be purchasable by another entity who are willing and able to finish it, provided conditions are met. Business disputes are what they are, but the only party who's chosen to make this the consumer's problem is Razbam.
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I hope Big or Nineline might be able to answer this: As much as I and a bunch of others are enjoying following this thread, nothing will practically change between now and the next patch, which at this stage has to be at least a month away. If people stop monitoring the forum and things progress negatively (eg Razbam not continuing to operate in DCS) will affected product owners be updated on the situation, or do we need to keep monitoring ourselves? Edit: When there is greater clarity, will it be included in the weekly news? Thanks
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I can name three: F-4, F-14 and F/A-18, and those are just from my hangar.
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We have a lot of users for whom English is not their native language, so we generally don't criticize spelling or grammar. In any case, this isn't a classroom, and for that matter, that is not the only definition of 'entitled'.
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If/when this blows over, I suggest you look at the Razbam Discord Harrier FAQ section before considering the AV-8. I found it very enlightening, both for where it is and what one can expect in future (pending future change). Just a thought.
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#Razbum?
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Aside from the current debate: It was said earlier in this thread that the Mirage 2000 had been ‘fixed’ in yesterday’s update, even though it wasn’t in the changelog. Just mentioning for those who might be waiting on that.
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100%. Find the resolution, figure out where you stand, then tell people what the plan is. Doing it this way leads to what we have: customers distressed and wanting to know how an as-yet undefined situation is going to be resolved. Edit: My first writing of this used the word “panicking”. Distressed fits the intended meaning far better and I duly changed it.
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He's just as entitled to put his case as you are to put yours, there's nothing 'shameful' in that. Let's all keep this chill please - we've all been given *a lot* of rope in this thread and I think a lot of us would like to keep the discussion going, let's not get it shut down now.
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Yeah absolutely, that would be different, then the first two parties would be VEAO and the customer, with ED as the third party… that would get messy Edit: I read that completely wrong. Yeah, the situation with the module keys would be VEAO in the position of the supermarket selling bad phone credit, since the keys would never have worked
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Sorry, missed this one - Heatblur sell keys, not their software. What you buy from Heatblur is still subject to the EULA between the end user (customer) and ED, Heatblur are not party to that. It's like buying phone credit from the supermarket - if the code they sell you has already been redeemed you claim your refund from the supermarket, if you have a problem with the product you speak to your phone company.
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1st two parties are parties to sale contracts - end user and ED. Because Razbam, Heatblur etc cannot create a contract directly with the user they are still third parties ie they are not parties to the direct contract. I hear what you're saying, but our third parties are not directly funded by ED - that's the difference between that relationship and the one between, say, Ubisoft and Massive Entertainment. If one of our 3rd party devs made a module that didn't sell a single copy they wouldn't get a nickel from ED. If no one buys Star Wars Outlaws, Massive Entertainment's costs are still met by Ubisoft.
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This whole debate, whichever side you are on, has come about because Razbam decided to make public comments about the dispute with ED - if not for Razbam's comments this conversation would not be happening. I know some people think customers are better served hearing part of the argument than none at all, I'm not sure and I probably won't make up my mind until after the situation is over and I see what happens with refunds, if things aren't resolved. Some also believe that Razbam and its devs were entitled to make the public comments they have, that opinion is valid. I disagree with it, but I've always disliked bullhorn negotiation. Either way, it certainly looks like there has been a loss of goodwill as a result of this. If I were ED - please note I am not - I would be asking myself if this is really someone I can afford to be in business with, or whether it's better to cut my losses, recover what I can, find the best outcome I can for customers and move on. ED do not appear to currently be doing that, so kudos to them for being more conciliatory than I would be. Just one dude's opinion.
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Uh huh, so you're getting a claim on one side and effectively a 'no comment' from the other - that is not a confirmation. You're entitled to choose to believe the side who's commenting rather than the side who isn't, but the idea that ED isn't communicating with them is not confirmed truth.
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Let's not take comments made by one party and unconfirmed by the other as truth.
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Fair enough, as I say I’d have to see something to be convinced, but that’s me. I also find it difficult to believe they’d keep working that long unpaid *because* the business are unable to pay their bills - I don’t know how a worker could think it was likely you’d ever get paid at that point and throw good labor after bad, so to speak, but again, maybe that’s a matter of personal judgement, so I’m willing to agree to disagree.
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Personally, I would need to see something convincing to believe employment law anywhere would allow salary to be dependent on a third party the employee couldn’t take action against, as would be the case here. Regardless, anything the devs have to say about the transactions between ED and Razbam is second-hand at best, and either coming from someone who doesn’t know anything first hand, or being said by someone making excuses for not paying them, so sharing still isn’t helpful. Edit: If Razbam told them they don’t have the money to pay salaries for that long, RB were essentially telling them they were insolvent, which opens up another Pandora’s box…
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The only ones who may have been put under financial stress by ED are the owner/s of Razbam. Razbam's employees are owed their salaries regardless of whether the retailer (ED) is paying their boss. If RB stopped paying their workers Razbam are the ones at fault for that, 100%, so that doesn't excuse the devs' behavior towards ED, although it might excuse anything disparaging they have to say about Razbam as a business and maybe Prowler. To be clear, even if a court determined that ED were entitled to keep all revenue from Razbam sales for the entire period, these devs would still be owed their salaray - by Razbam.
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Oh man, I was thinking the M2K had to be the one module that was fine... damn. I flew that before the AdA changes got made, but it was still a hoot (largely thanks to a very helpful community on these forums) and I always meant to go back to it one day.
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If you'd like some entertainment, check out the Harrier channel there now No one has replied yet...
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Totally agree on what you say about the Harrier - had I realized it was supposed to be out of EA since 2020 and/or seen the related thread I would have never bought the SA map. I'm just glad I saw it before buying the Mudhen.
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I know you and others got treated harshly on the Razbam discord, that shouldn't have happened, it was unprofessional of them to let it happen, and it does nothing for their credibility. Personally, I would suggest you make a complaint to Discord, since the whole ANG thing they're supposed to be a little more willing to act. Thing is, just going on what you have said yourself about how that Discord is run, explains why it's pointless for anyone to go there and comment. I would think we'd like this to be a place where people can take any position - including a neutral one - and be respected. Edit: Please note I posted this before seeing JuiceIsLoose's most recent comment
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This is not an employer-employee relationship. Razbam produces a product that is provided to ED for sale. Very different situations. As far as the comment (not from Atazar SPN) about ED supposedly being in a tough financial position, let's not assume that Razbam would know, and remember that RB have very deliberately made public comments to create pressure on ED. Whether people think that they are justified in doing that or not, they have motivation to make things sound bad for ED, so let's not attach too much weight to Razbam's opinions on a separate company. All personal opinion, of course.
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Easy for me to talk, but even If worst comes to absolute worst I don't think anything will get bricked. If no work at all can be done on the Razbam modules and the next update breaks them, I think ED would make the current version of DCS available into the future, so nothing should really get 'bricked', worst case is you wind up with what you have now and you're stuck with the current version of the sim. I know that's a long way from what you all deserve, but at least things wouldn't get worse than they are now. I'm just voicing that as opinion, but I believe that was one possible solution for the Hawk situation. I know ED can't keep commenting on hypotheticals or say much more than they have about this Razbam situation, but maybe it would be helpful if they could clarify if, in principle, if any module couldn't have compatibility maintained into the future, whether ED would endeavor to make the last known compatible version of the sim available into the future so that customers could have enduring use of their existing modules in their existing form.
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I got knocked back for a refund on the South Atlantic map (based on it being a 2022 purchase - I am definitely under 2 hours playtime) so I wouldn’t be too hopeful…