Arsonist

1. Fair point, for the most part. 2. Given, that there are sales basically every week, by ED in their store, as well as those are targeted at the already existing community instead using the possibility to reach a wider audiance, makes this argument invalid. ("You are to not care of course.") 3. This argument is mostly invalid, since this "later launch" is merely artificial. Specifically because modules are so long in development that two weeks more or less don't really matter. Furthermore, Steam brings actually a vast amount of functionality to the table, which is just not used by ED, yet. Yet somehow, parts of the DCS community seem to want ED to develop a platfrom the contains all the functionality Steam already provides out of the box. As if the development of such a system would cost nothing. Plus, Steam is specifically build for this purpose and successful in it, for years already. However, we are getting slightly off topic.

Seriously guys (forum users, not ED), are you doing this on purpose?! It states, in Wags' message: a) If your computer is on-line (with internet connection), DCS will check with ED's servers, every four days. b) If your computer is off-line, DCS will check with ED's servers the next time it has an internet connection. I'm quite baffled that people keep requesting very detailed simulations of planes, which require 500+ pages of manual, however seem not able to read and understand like 20 lines of news/announcement. How do you guys come even up with those ideas - that you cannot play without internet connection, - that you need to connect every four days - that ED would go through all the hastle to create a new copy protection only for one specific module without trying to update all the others in the future For real, how?! And, on top of that, always this complaining "Why does ED release a test version of the module to the test version of the game? I don't buy anymore modules in early access...". Seriously, why would you even want to pollute the "clean" stable-branch of the program with (highly) possible erroneous code? That is the deal of early access: test version of the module, in the test version of the programm, most likely incomplete and broken. If you do not want to be part of the testing process, that is fine, don't be! But, please, stop cluttering the forum. Just don't buy in early access. The only thing I give you is, that the communication regarding the new copy protection mechanism could have been better. There is the weekend news for instance. However, this is still not that big of a deal as some people want it to be. PS: I like the approch ED uses on Facebook quite a lot! People ask the same question over and over, dispite being answered in the post already they are commenting on or in the comments thereafter? Just copy/paste the same answer to every of those comments. This is quite good! If people don't want to spend effort in reading the post, why should anyone spend effort to write an individual answer for each?

@ cordite You are right! My first post was not adressed to you, but rather a general observation. We just happend to post in short succession. The second one was for you. I will edit them...

@ cordite The message states (now) the following: "The new system will just “phone home” after a four day period or the next time you log into DCS World." I understand it as: a) With internet connection, it contacts an ED server every four days. b) Without internet connection, the next time you have an internet connection (whenever that might be).

I can't really follow the thickness-statement. The fog in the screenshot seems not to be off by much. Although, it will certainly vary with air pressure, speed and moisture content of the air. The point is rather that in the WIP (yes, I know and understand the meaning of "work in progress") screen shot it looks like the origin is a point source, located at the fuselage where the LEX starts. In the photographs however, it seems to be a line source mainly at the forward part of the leading edge of the LEX, with some distance to the fuselage at the tip (which makes sense, the airspeed where both parts touch, shoud be lowest). Then the air, flowing from the front to the back of the aircraft, forms an eddy at the LEX, that confines the low pressure region somewhat until it reaches the back of the aircraft. But as already stated on multiple occasions, this is a work in progress. And from my perspective it looks very promissing already! Thanks to ED for all the effort you people put into this sim! All seems to start coming together, nicely.

Hi ET22RULZ, I suggest to read the above mentioned thread again, since it provides information to your questions. Nirvi wrote: I wrote: While Hotdognz reported: So, the answer to that question seems not to be conclusive, but answered nevertheless. Cheers

Oh boy, photogrammetry is such an wonderful tool in the right hands! That is some great work you guys are doing there! :thumbup:

Okay, let's let it go. On a different note: Interesting, I see now that it is possible to have paid content in the workshop, didn't know that: https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent That is nice for people creating mods, I guess. Some of them put really a lot of effort into those mods.

Well, maybe it is the language barrier (english not being my native language), however, I'm not quite sure what your point is. Furthermore, this discussion is happening here on many layers. The only things for ED I see here is the unification of DCS (2.5) and the difficulties between Steam and stand-alone. The "difficulties" I'm talking about are mainly the slight delay in patching and the early access release of new modules to stand-alone. This could be better, sure, but is not a really big issue. Also, the unification is worked on. Given my limited experience in writing scripts, I'm would guess ED does not work on multiple different branches in parallel just for fun. If you have only a few hundred lines of code, this is already a pain, imagine with thousands of lines. Furthermore, it is a bit odd that you and/or your "hardcore gaming friend" expects official DCS modules in the Workshop. The Workshop is supposed for user generated content, mods, because official content is a DLC (paid or not). And to be honest, it is a bit strange that you let him run into nearly every possible issue. Most of the stuff you bring up in your OP could have easily be sorted out by you. Why did you not tell him that you play DCS 2 mostly and that he needs to buy one of the maps to be able to join you? When your friend is about to start with DCS, why not use 1.5 first (especially when he comes from Silent Hunter 3 - this is at least what I think SH3 stands for)? He would also have the free planes and wouldn't need to buy a thing instead of two modules. That is quite a bit of money, I'll understand that, but also totally preventable. Well, okay, if he wants to fly specifically helicopters this does not work. However, I totally fail to see how all of this is ED's problem. And on the point of "[...] new modules coming out [...]" and "[...] I would call Alpha at this stage. In the old days Beta signified that all the core features are functioning in the game." The early access versions (DCS, as well as modules) will stay. They are a way to prevent desasters when updating the game. After internal testing a patch goes to external testing - early access. If everything goes well it is then pushed to the public version. This public version is "the game" and your "full price experience" - meaning DCS 1.5. If you decide to opt into one of the public tests (modules or main game version), then this your decision. This "full price" argument is also only valid in a very tight frame. One could easily wait for one of the weekly(!) sales, and hardly anybody is forced to buy all the modules the instant that it is possible. Sure, ED could streamline DCS more, but honestly I guess they are doing exactly that. I assume DCS 2.5 will bring a lot of stuff which goes into this direction.

Well, how about ED wants to release a new feature patch before announcing it, because if they do it the other way round, and it gets slightly delayed for whatever reason, people start complaining? On the other hand, people seem also to complain when it is patched first and communicated two days later. So, yea, not quite sure what to say... :huh: Furthermore, no one is forced to buy this product, especially not in that instant when it gets released. It's not like not having this module prevents you from flying...

Hi killerwhale, if you need some assistance to switch to the open-alpha (2.1.1; as of now) in Steam, have a look in this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=192833 Cheers.

Hi kushoon, I've tried it now briefly and can give you some information on the keys. The only thing you need to do is to switch to the open-alpha, as described above (assuming you have already purchased NTTR). Steam keeps all your installed modules, as you had before switching. There was no question for activation or something similar - all seems to be handled internally. I started the mission editor, put an A-10 C on the ramp at Nellis and was able to play. Plain and simple. Hope it helps. Cheers.

Hi kushoon, I'm not sure if you can get NTTR to work on Steam already. I guess you can only use the modules which are provided via Steam. Just a guess. However, it would be strange since I thought that DCS 2.x only supports the new terrain technology and not the old one. I'm sorry, for the keys I have no answer, because I didn't try any of the DCS beta options via Steam, yet. EDIT: I was not paying attention, NTTR is now available on Steam as DLC. Completely missed that... Thus it shoukld work. Fly save!

Unfortunately, I was too busy burning stuff that I didn't manage to visit even one of the suggested places, before I went home. Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions! :thumbup:

@Fri13 Games on Steam, while still in early access, can receive paid DLC. At least they could until a while ago, but this might have changed. One of the best examples for this would be ARK and the massive uproar it caused: https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/2/12776612/ark-survival-evolved-early-access-paid-dlc Such a behaviour of a game developer might also factor into the negative perception of the "early-access" concept by some people. So it is both sides to be blamed, up to a degree. However, I'll stop now to not move everything even more off topic. EDIT: Since DCS 2.x is now available on Steam (early-access), as well as NTTR (paid DLC), I would assume that this "no paid DLC for early-access" discussion has come to a close. ;) Fly safe, everybody!

@ SkateZilla: My apologies for leaving this discussion all of a sudden; real life interrupted quite a bit. I'll give you that the users here seem to be slightly more mature. This sample, however, has quite some bias, since DCS is very specific kind of game which is not everybodys cup of tea. Still, from my perspective, the view you show in the posts above is overly simple. Steam has an active user base of around 67 million players per month (https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/steam-statistics/), thus I would argue that it is safe to assume that this is a cross section of society (with respect to gaming, of course) and can be used as representation of the average gamer. Therefore, it is not a "Steam-user-issue" but a "general-people-issue", " haters gonna hate" if you like. The trends are the same in here, but slightly smoothed/mature. However, this might be strongly biased, since here you have moderators who try to steer the discussions and even suspend peoples posting rights if they cross the line. I would argue that this helps also quite a lot to have less unreasonable negative feedback. Maybe, if you need to suspend somones posting rights, it is because of that persons posts are not mature? Which raises the question: if you would not manage the discussions, how mature would it actually be in here? I claim, one could not distinguish this forum from others, without the moderators in place.

Hi kushoon, I'll try to give you some answers to your questions: 1) No. You need to choose which of the beta/ early access versions you want to have installed. To change a version you first need to navigate to your steam library. In the list on the left hand side you look for DCS and right click on it with your mouse. In the menu that opens, choose "Properties" at the bottom. This should open a new window with some tabs on the top, one of which should be labeled "BETAS" (somewhere on the right side). On that page you should see a drop-down menu at the top left. When you click on it you can choose the version you want to use. After you selected one Steam should start to download the needed data. See the attached screen shot. 2) I don't know that, havn't tried it yet. 3) Yes and no. Steam seems not to allow the to have multiple versions in parallel, at least to my knowledge. You need to select a version you want to play and needed files will then be downloaded and installen (see 1). However, you can change whenever you want. 4) That depends. If you select the "NONE - Opt out of all beta programms" option, you will stay at the newest stable version and patches will be installed as you have set it up. Typically each version would receive its own patches, at least from what I've experianced from other games. Then, depending on how ED wants to handle it, either they stop the branch and you need to change again to the "NONE - Opt out of all beta programms" to get the newest stable. Or they might merge the branches, which basically means they do that change for you. From your end both ways should look like the regualr installation of a patch. What happens to you modules I don't know. However, I assume since they are connected to your account you will find them in DCS as usual. Maybe you need to activate them, but this I don't know; which shouldn't be too difficult since Steam shows you all your keys for your games when you are in a games and open the Steam overlay. Hope this helps a bit. Cheers.

So, you don't see this behaviour here in this forum, as well? All the people who ask for the next time module XYZ is on sale, or complaining (not actually reporting, but complaining) about missing functions of "early access" modules? You don't see this as a general behaviour, but mainly for the Steam users? If so, then I disagree. Of course there is some separation that has already taken place, for people who come to these forums instead of the Steam product page. And there you have people giving bad ratings for e.g. high DLC prices, because they do not understand that this is not their regular "three new skins and one extra weapon" kind of DLC. But still, the trend is the same here, as well as there.

In his first sentence he is labeling the users coming from Steam as being specifically difficult when it comes to "early access". Is this what you agree on, or have I misunderstood your post? On the other part, that "early access" means unfinished products, but people somehow expect it to be finished/complete, I agree on (as pointed out in my post earlier). I'm arguing here, that both user bases are similar (basically the same, just choose a different platform to get DCS from), and only the ratings are the issue. Which, I argue, can be seen by all the threads in this forum here where people complain about modules that are in early access. It is the same thought process here, as well. Just ED has no rating system in place, thus it is slightly more hidden, since one needs to actually read those threads.

With all due respect: Come on, Skatezilla. To be fair, the wording of this statement should rather be "[...] the general userbase [...]". This overall concept of "early access" and "development branches" (or "branches" in general for that matter) seems to be very hard to grasp for people in general. Please consider all the threads in these very forums of people complaining that, for instance, Viggen was released into the beta branch of 1.5 while itself was still in beta, as well. Or all the other complains of the graphic issues in 2.2 (or what ever version it is/was). Or expressions such as "plane xyz is grounded until <random functionallity> is fixed". This list goes on and on. The issue is the ratings, not the different userbases (of which I think they are not really that different). Within Steam the user can give ratings for the products they purchased. Those rating would be seen by everybody who wants to inform himself on the product and then might reconsider to buy DCS modules. Based on ratings which are, in fact, unrealistic. From a developers point of view it is very understandable that ED wants to avoid this. Also, I assume that if ED would have a rating system on their own platform, they would end up in the same region. (Based on the threads of people complaining within these very formus, I made this assumption.) On a side note: It is also rather strange that users in here try to advertise the stand-alone version with expressions like "you get modules earlier" and not mentioning that they are incomplete due to early access. However, that is the name of the game - if you buy into early access the product might be slightly cheaper but the software is incomplete and buggy and the developer expects to get useful (!) and mature (!) feedback. This concept is not for everybody. However, each customer needs to decide for themselfes.

Thank you very much guys, nice recommendations! :thumbup: I will see how I can fit a visit into my schedule.

Welcome! I'm not really sure if I understand your question correctly, it seems that you are looking for a kind of game launcher, or platform, which would make it easy to start the sim, keep track of your modules and maybe even manage your mods. If this is what you are asking, than this would be my reply: As far as I understand ED has a launcher which allows you to manage your modules and you can update your game with it. However, sometimes it seems to be a bit tricky with the updates and as well as the new releases. Which can be observed by the many posts of people asking for the availability of said updates at the release days, be it updates or module releases. Another possibility would be to use Steam to manage your game(s) and modules. (My answer on this topic is more detailed because I'm using this platform.) It is very easy to use and comfortable (which you maybe know already). Chosing to have one of your, already purchaised, modules to be installed is basically one click in a tickbox. With four clicks you can change the language of your installation. Download speed mainly depends on your internet connection, not on torrents. It provides an internal forumwhich is also openly readable from the internet. Community generated guides are available for controller setups or handling of the specific aircraft. If you want to use the beta version it is five clicks. The 1.x beta that is, 2.x is too far away, concerning the version. This could create some trouble for user who want to switch between the versions, thus it is not provided via Steam by ED (more info here). Also you can't have multiple installations in parallel. Unfortunately, some of the most conveniant functions which Steam provides have not been implemented into DCS, yet. Those would be: Integration of the workshop, which allows you to easily browse mods and decide which ones to (de)install (again, just one click), which would automatically be updated when the author conducts some changes. The "join game" function, which allows you to click on the name of a friend in you friendlist and directly join into the game. It means it would start DCS and automatically connect to the server your friend is on, without you searching in the server list or typing the IP adress. If you want to join a server which uses mods DCS could tell you which ones and directly install them via the workshop, if you wish to. It could handle the credentials via your Steam account. In the Steam cloud your meta data, like profiles, controller configuration, logbook and saved game progress could be stored. The editor could directly be connected to the workshop to easily upload player generated content. Personally, I guess it is rather a matter of time until the process of integrating of, at least some, of those items will be started. However, keep in mind that modules are released a bit earlier to the stand-alone version than to Steam and alpha/beta versions of modules are only available in the stand-alone version. I hope this helps you.

Related to my work, I'm for a few weeks in Sweden (Lund) next month. I thougth it might be a good idea to spend some of the time to go to a musem and have a look at the Viggen. Do you Viggen experts have some recommendations where to go and would share this information? Many thanks in advance!

Hm, I was under the impression that the reason for not having Lantrin right from the modules release, was due to the need of significantly changing the cockpit model to account for the Lantrin functionality, like its screen. Thus, Lantrin was discussed (maybe!) to be added at a later point in time. I can't remember to have read a discussion, or statements, that the implementation of the pod itself was the issue. It is true, there are some 3rd party developers who are waiting for the implementation of certain features by ED, for instance Razbam with the ground radar. However, this hasn't been the case for Leatherneck/Heatblur. Am I missing something here?

Just a small update to my previous post, to provide a source. As one can see in the attached screenshot, right now Factorio has a few versions on Steam. All the 0.15 versions are beta (obviously) and have been uploaded during the last four days.