Victory205

Agree, that part was over done, but the book does mention that when Jesse was young, based on advice that his mother shared with him, he did recite epithets into a mirror in order to desensitize himself so he wouldn’t react to the insults that he knew would be coming. I don’t recall the book stating that he did that in later life, but you know how scriptwriters can be. Brown was also a devoted Christian, which was left out of the flick if I recall correctly. The books describe that aspect of his life as probably what got him through the challenges more than retribution or anger. I’ve only seen the movie once, as the ending is pretty emotional, but it sends a powerful message that is felt even when sitting here typing this message! Both of those guys were professional fighter pilots who succeeded in a tough business, and got the job done under difficult circumstances. I’m glad that the story, even the “Hollywoodized” version, finally made it into the public view. The only other aspect that I wish they would have included is more of Jesse’s early life. The guy went from sharecropping, mesmerized by airplanes flying over as he stood in his fields, to the cockpit of Navy fighters at war, meeting Elizabeth Taylor on liberty along the way. It’s kinda neat that the Magnitude3 F4U-1D brought it to the forefront again too.

Yes he did! Hudner lived into his early nineties, humble to the end. I think I knew about the story before the books because as I finished up the RAG, I was penciled in to go to VF32, within which Brown and Hudner’s legacy was preserved. It’s a long story, squadron CO infighting with the Fighter Wing One, but they ended up sending another pilot from my class, who happened to be African-American, which given Jesse Brown’s legacy, was pretty cool. What “saved me” in the end, what that VF32 was deployed at the time, and I did not have a passport. My RAG classmate did, so he went, and went to TARPS training and picked up 84 during workups. VF32 was not in a good place at the time, with old jets, bad leadership, and assigned to an old ship. We both found out about all of this after the fact. As you stated, the story was relatively unknown until the books came out, The Flight of Jesse Leroy Brown in 1998, and Devotion in 2015, the latter being picked up as a movie. Both books are worth the investment, although some of the prose in Devotion is a little dumbed down for the masses, calling the carrier’s island “the tower” and so forth, it still captures the history well.

It's an amazing story, the two books written on it are excellent. The movie is typical Hollywood. Pilots hanging out on the flight deck while their buddies are landing, long straight in approaches, taking down giant bridges with rockets, MiG engagement that didn’t happen, but they got the important point across. It’s perplexing that flight simmers focus on rivet counting and the airplane footage (which was gorgeous), and can’t remember the relationship and devotion between wingman that resulted in a Medal of Honor. The Elizabeth Taylor part actually happened, the crew of USS Leyte actually raised over $24,000 in today’s dollars and donated it to Daisy Brown for her college fund. Hudner’s home town held a parade, gave him $9000 as a gift, which he actually donated to daisy. Hudner had a long career, did an exchange tour with the USAF, flew F84’s and F101, back to the USN, where he served as a squadron CO flying F8’s on USS Ticonderoga (flying Crusaders on 27C Essex class carriers requires formidable fortitude), staff jobs and finally, a carrier XO. He never considered himself a hero. Hudner and Brown both had ships named in their honor. How did you miss all of that? Want to know what a real “badass” looks like? Look no further than the lives of Jesse Brown and Thomas Hudner.

Of course, especially compared to FBW jets. The other consideration is that modern warbird owners aren't using max power for takeoffs (racers excepted) due to engine preservation $$$ and a lack of high octane fuel. The DCS F4U has to be slow to get it to torque roll, but it will do it. The DCS P51 would get into a little coupled nose oscillation where it would describe a little circle on approach. I have a friend who owned two mustangs, and he gave me that RCA Dog look when I asked him about it. Given how long it took MagnitudeTrois to release the F4U-1D, I'm not too hopeful that we're going to see prompt fixes in upcoming patches. We'll see.

Yes, pretty much. In the SNJ, T28 and even the little 400hp T34C, when your left hand isn't doing something else, it's resting on the trim controls, which in those aircraft are knobs and wheels that allow for very precise control. The downside compared to jet coolie hat trim, is that you have to remove your hand from the throttle to make inputs. You don't trim during aerobatic maneuvers, but during cruise, climb, descent and approach, any power input or speed change, then the wheels are constantly moving to relieve control pressures. The mantra was "Power, Attitude, Trim", in that order. We get away with it in flight sims, because our controllers produce very light spring forces (I'm about to move to FFB, hopefully it will be a more realistic experience). I posted an article that covers performance and handling characteristics of four WW2 fighters here that talks about the F4U having very light control feel, almost "too light", in contrast to the P47 and especially the Mustang, which was a two handed airplane due to it's heavy stick forces. There are maneuver evaluations in the article that are surprising. It describes how the F6F ran out of rudder trim in some flight regimes, requiring constant, heavy rudder inputs which caused pilot fatigue on climbs and diving maneuvers due to the fin offset typical in prop fighters... There is also an acceleration comparison, and the Corsair that they tested took two and a half minutes to accelerate from 100 to 220 KIAS at 10000MSL at METO power. I think some DCS jet jockeys are missing their afterburners. The DCS F4U-1D will roll inverted to the left if you give it full wellie on a wave off if you allow it to get too slow. On carrier final turns, pilots report having to use right rudder in a left bank to coordinate the turn properly due to the power requried for approach. The sim seems to be in the ballpark, but I haven't flown the Corsair, nor have any of the Youtube "test pilots" who are making claims about realism, pro or con.

@BIGNEWY The attached article addresses some of questions being asked around here with respect to handling and feel of the F4U, F6F, P51 and P47. It’s from the June, 1990 issue of EAA’s Sport Aviation Magazine. For sim pilots arguing about roll rates and pitch sensitivities, notice the poor roll rates (by today’s standards) of WW2 fighters, and that the Corsair has the lightest stick force per G of the four fighters by far, described as almost “too light”, taking the CG location into account. The Corsair is described as having no buffet at high G, and little stall warning. The paragraph concerning dynamic stability is instructive as well. Read carefully about the test limitations before you begin howling about the absolute performance numbers- these were 50+ year old flying museum aircraft, operating on 100LL fuel, which limited them to MIL for takeoff and climb, but only Max Continuous Power and 6G’s for the rest of the flight test. However, relative performance comparisons should still be valid to a useful degree. There are plenty of charts from the operating handbook available for MRT and WEP power settings available with high octane fuel, some have already been posted. Anyone who has flown a single engine prop aircraft with significant horsepower understands that every power change and every airspeed change requires a corresponding control input and corresponding trim change. The F4U we have includes a handy balance ball on the gunsight to aid the pilot in nulling out sideslip. Whether or not the amplitude of those characteristics is correct for the MAG3 F4U debatable, but since none of us has flown the Corsair, declaring the FM hopelessly “broken” is a fool’s errand. I think you’ll find the article interesting, and I hope it sheds some light on WW2 era fighter handling and general performance. WWII Flight Test Comparison Sport Aviation June 1990.pdf

It's surprising to hear because it isn't true. Sideslip (beta) has been modeled since the beginning, and is used for a myriad of calculations that produce the detailed flight modeling. It's constantly being reviewed and tweaked throughout the flight envelope as it has a powerful impact on handling A jet isn't a light, prop driven aerobatic airplane that produces lift due to propellor flow over the fuselage and tail control surfaces. The real F14 with full rudder in knife edge (at zero G) would result in the nose slowly falling through the horizon. Don't forget, there is a rudder authority limiter that begins at 250 KIAS and is fully engaged at 400 KIAS (9.5º restriction).

Video from the TPS Gang on F14A departure/spin characteristics and recovery procedures that shows what we were dealing with. The video illustrates the severe problems that result from inertial coupling due to sideslip. These are valid for both AFCS F14 variants that we have in the sim, the only difference is that the B is less likely to generate engine stalls. As always, using rudder inputs only to roll at high alpha will help keep you out of trouble. Roll, then pull, and wake up those feet!

This is what he’s referencing-

Something that isn’t widely understood by simmers due to the restraints of modeling is that bullets (and rockets for that matter) don’t behave like a laser. When sideslip is present, the rounds aerodynamically fair into the free stream during the initial part of their travel. You can move the impact point, but it isn’t a 1:1 ratio when firing with a fixed sight. Most computer sights that I’m familiar with do not account for sideslip very well. The latest and greatest might. I’ve not performed a detailed analysis of bullet trajectories, but last time I paid attention, bullets in flight behaved more like a laser than a projectile that models intricate ballistic phenomena. Good enough for a game though.

Standing before the long green table, at attention, in front of a group of senior officers you just disrespected, trying to justify why you should keep your wings. It takes less talent to stay out of trouble than to talk your way out of it.

The TA-4J/F had the same NWS switch logic. Even with its narrow gear, taxi on straightaways was accomplished with rudder and differential braking. unless there was a crosswind, NWS was engaged only for turns. For takeoffs in the F-4E sim, I generally don’t use NWS unless at very slow speeds. Line up carefully, and if you need to engage it at high speed to correct a drift for some reason, then ensure that you center the rudder pedals before pressing the NWS button. If you have a pinky switch on your controller, then it’s not a big deal to use it as intended, pressing only when necessary. NWS should be used sparingly, with steering priority being aerodynamic rudder first, then differential braking, then NWS. Not sure why pressing and holding a little switch when necessary is causing drama. Don’t want you gents to get the wrong idea, and develop bad habits that put you into the weeds with a load of bombs, with a lot of explaining to do to the base commander.

You are not an idiot.

That would only be “check”. If Heatblur make the F-4E carrier compatible, then it would reduce the incentive to make a proper Naval F-4B, J, N, K or the FAA F-4K. The Naval versions have different radars, cockpit layouts, and flight models due to BLC and depending upon version selected, slats. It’s a considerable resource investment. Checkmate, would be an inability to recoup that investment because despite what people say, because when it comes time to pony up, far fewer customers would be willing pay because they already flying an F-4E off of the ship. The risk of producing Naval Phantom module is greater than a producing a different aircraft that would have a better return on investment. Nothing nefarious, it’s simple economics.. My opinion only, take it for what it’s worth. I have zero influence on Heatblur’s business plan.

This would ruin my immersion.

I had the reputation of having a “sunny disposition” until I got involved with flight simmers. It’s difficult to understand the contemptuous mindset.

Our F-4E doesn’t have BLC.

They were shot down by an SA-2, on one of the biggest days of the air war in Viet Nam. There were hundreds of F4’s airborne that day in multiple engagements across the north. Perhaps you can explain how your MiG theory applies?

Many pilots like to fly with a little nose down trim, requiring a very light pull while hand flying. It’s a common technique during formation flight to get rid of the deadband around the neutral point in pitch. It’s difficult to convey how one of these jets handles, but they require constant, coordinated trim, power and control inputs. You are never not “flying” the aircraft, especially in pitch. Throw in things like cg changes with fuel burn, coupled with normal atmospheric conditions of realistic turbulence and shear interactions, and no one would be worried about being unable to achieve hands off trim.

I’m using the same hardware and the response is easily flown according to my expectations from real world flying. Lots of variables, within a persons gaming rig, from springs, cams, extensions, refresh rates, arm geometry. Who knows what sort of hardware components variation may be lurking within the supply chain of PC flight control manufacturers?

Be careful of test cell data label “estimated thrust transient time”. Installed performance incorporates intake design limitations on what is achievable.

FWIW, the goal we had with the F14 module was to make the sim fly like the aircraft did, including its idiosyncrasies and challenges, and not succumb to making it fly the way we “wished” it would fly. For perspective, the A-4 series of jets that we all flew in training were very sensitive in pitch and roll, yet students earned their instrument ratings in them (no autopilot by the way). I don’t think that in two years, that I ever got an TA-4J completely trimmed for more than 30 seconds in smooth air during cruise. The F14 was more stable than the A-4, and much easier to fly on instruments, or during approaches or landings. I see a lot of comparisons here to the F14 module, understand that the F-4E should feel less stable than the Tomcat. Trimming and flight path corrections are part of a constant process. The pilot was constantly making tiny inputs, and “hands off” flight usually meant accepting a small deviation in vertical rates. Fighters and Attack aircraft would not pass FAA Certification Standards. I’ve emphasized this many times, you need to support your right forearm and fly with your fingers and wrist. You will be making small inputs in pitch at all times.

The “lack of a HUD” is the best feature of the F-4E, you mackerel slappers are finally going to learn to fly a proper approach. Couple of pointers that may help you get sorted- • Set up your configuration as clean with 3-4000lbs of fuel for starters. The max field landing weight is 46,000lbs, but it exacerbates the issues that you are having. • As per my “FAM-1 Survival Guide”, use a pattern altitude of 1500 feet AGL, target 180 Knots on downwind, don’t fly too fast, it will tend to make your decel to onspeed more difficult. You also need to add power during the approach turn, the lower your downwind, the more power as your descent rate will be lower. • Start by flying your approaches fast, 15 units, then target 17 when comfortable, then work your way down to 19.2 units. Note the power requirements (Fuel Flow) to generate the rate of descent that takes you around the approach turn under control. • Hell yes! Practice “slow flight”, which is simply practicing flying in the landing configuration. Do the same thing, start fast, work your speed down to 19.2 units while performing level turns, then 7-800 fpm descents in a 30ºAOB, followed by wings level. Note the power required. If you want to continue to flail, skip this step.

Watched Reflected’s video. It’s pretty good, but someone needs to let him know that he breaks like a pu**y. I’ve seen airliners roll faster and pull harder than that. Co-ordinated rudder and aileron for rolling in the landing pattern please. Don’t get caught up in absolute engine rpm for adjustments, most pilots use fuel flow in most jets, and consider whatever they do reference as ball park settings. Kidding aside, taking it easy as you build confidence in your abilities is a smart way to approach any new aircraft.

Believe it or not, the F14 did have a provision for the flaps and slats to automatically retract. If the flap handle was in the normal range (ie, not in emergency), then an overspeed that exceeded 225 KIAS would auto retract the main flap panels. However, this feature was removed in an airframe change (AYC 660P1). I am not sure of the actual timeframe of the change, but I never flew an aircraft that had the auto retract capability. Auto retract was originally confined to certain BuNo's, but was removed in all aircraft by the airframe change. I'm not 100% sure why it was removed, but if memory serves, it was likely due to inadvertent retractions occurring below the 225 KIAS trigger speed. Exceeding 225 KIAS with the landing flaps extended is one of the three states that activates the "Reduce Speed" warning light, so all F14 aircraft will show that warning. All F14's also have an AUX FLAPS blow back feature due to a bypass valve located within the aux flap control section of the combine hydraulic system. So technically, the F14 does have a blow back feature, but only for the AUX FLAPS.