Triggerjo23

Yes will definetely need clarity on that becuase it certainly gives the impression that is in game. Other things which are not implimented yet such as Data-Trans have (not yet implimented) on them. If this is a bug soley on the Tomcat then it is very dificult to pin down. All I know is that I can fire on a player 1v1 and have the missile track all the way to pitbul everytime so long as the opponent does not try to notch the radar. On other ocasions though and especaily when there are a good few people on a server it does not track at all. I am not so convinced it is a Tomcat related bug though and maybe something to do with netcode or ping in DCS perhaps. From what I have seen, the majority of people who have not experienced this fly PVE rather than PVP. The ones who do fly PVP resort to STT launches. As a small example; If you fly the F18 much at all in A2A then you will probably be aware of a bug where the F18 will not see a target right in front of it at co-alt and nose pure. The get around the bug you have to swap from A2A into A2G then back again and magicaly the bandit appears. There are also instances where TWS tracks will drop as a missile comes off the rail or halfway through flight. The 120 can survive this of course as once you reacquire lock the missile will continue to the tartget. The Phoenix of course does not do this, but when the tracks can be lost so easily at times even though both yourself and the bandit are nose pure on each other and not manouvering then you stand to lose more than half of your missiles like this if not more. STT at longer ranges is not much of an option becuase of the 2 minute long engagement warning a bandit will get to tell them a missile is inbound. I will try and dick through tracks and tacviews for the best examples of it. Sorry for the large response but I have another question. I was wandering if this is also a bug or not. The Phoenix and the AIM-7 can track from TCS without giving either a lock or engagement warning to the bandit. Certainly a great feature if it is intended however I don't know if it is or not. I have seen in some F14 manuals it says a target can be tracked silently via TCS but they never state this is with a missile or not. In the HB manual it says the Radar slave to TCS is equivilant to an STT lock and as far as I am aware the TCS takes over from the CW antenna which is what gives an engagement warning. I have limited understanding on this but just thought I would ask. Thanks for your previous reply. Edit. If the no engagement warning is a bug and you want to know how to reproduce it then simply STT a target the slave TCS to get a TCS track, then slave the radar to TCS. Once you have done this you hit Pulse or Pulse Doplar search to unlock the bandit. Now launching a missile will not produce a warning of any kind yet the Phoenix will track all the way to target.

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Never saw people saying the missile had a lock in ARH just that the missile was active. In the manual it states the missile will revert to SARH if a lock is not gained on a target. Yep, this is what the missile does just now. The AIM120 in DCS will reacquire but not the Phoenix. Are there any updates on fixing tracking issues in TWS for the Tomcat. It seems to be a big issue in multiplayer since the late January patch.

This is refering to when firing in P-STT, PH-ACT or ACM cover up. The missile is active off the rails but will refer to an STT locked target if it can not find a target on its own. This feature has been implimented, you can find it in the manual under the Phoenix section.

Why not just try to make an F14D, there is actualy data on that although even with that you will find it incredibly dificult to get enough data. You could go the fictional route with that and put 120's on it. Beyond that though, although I would like to have an ST-21 in DCS it would be 100% guess work. Even the artist renditions of it are guess work and not official desings.

I am not confusing the DL with link-4 as far as I know it should be on a diferent frequency as others have told me. I have said I am looking for the right answer here as some tell me one thing and others tell me another but there never seems to be documentation to back it all up. Well if I can not see the documentation how do I know the others do and they are not just speculating. Documentation was posted which states that the Phoenix uses SA-PD antennas which would make sense for PD-STT then goes active with A-PD and not SA-CW. I think it is posted on page four to six on this thread. Also, other missiles of the same era used methods of tracking which meant that even when in STT a fired Fox 1 would not give a missile warning and this was by using data link. Considering that the Phoenix which is of the same era, is a fox 3 and made by a country with more technology, and the missile uses DL then why would it not be possible for it to track without a missile warning using SARH/DL. FWind posted information to the contrary of your claim that the Phoenix use SA-CW, as far as I know SA-CW is for the AIM-7. You see the confusion here I hope.

Where does HB state that the target should get a launch warning from PD-STT (SARH/DL). That would settle the argument don't you think and since I have not seen this when reading the HB manual so can you link it please? Thanks.

Again were is the documentation to support that data link to the missile is the same frequency. I did not say then data link was on a radio, I said it is a diferent frequency as far as I know. Again, were is the documentation.

You need to read through the comments a bit beter I think. We are not discussing this from a position of complete ignorance. We know the radar modes and it seems like you are confusing fox 1's with fox 3's. A lot of the information posted seems to be from Wikipedia after googling SARH.

Are you asking how a TWS signal looks to a bandit vs STT. TWS no lock warning STT lock warning. When missile is launch, TWS no launch warning until missile is pitbul and for STT it depends on the radar mode and the capabilities of both the missiles and radar. Generaly for most modules in DCS it would give a launch warning but some do not do this even with fox 1's. As we were discussing, the Phoenix fired in PD-STT will give only a radar lock warning and not a missile launch warning as it is firing the Phoenix via SA-PD in SARH/DL rather than SA-CW. This is from what I understand but as I said I could be wrong which is why I asked about it here as I am unsure. So far I have not found an answer. "RWR" (Radar Warning Reciever), not Data Link Warning Reciever. Data Link is not transmited over the radar (microwave) spectrum as it is radio.

I think we are speaking to diferent languages here. I know the diference between STT and TWS. Also just because something is a signal does not mean that an RWR can pick it up. Anything outside of what it is tuned to sense is as good as static to a reciever.

He is saying that it might as no evidence to the contrary has been given. As stated, other missiles have the ability to track without a missile warning when fired from and STT lock such as the R-33 for example when fired from the MIG-31. What is being used to justify saying that the target recieves no missile warning in STT is that when it is fired from PD-STT it uses SARH/DL as tracking. This is the same as TWS and is essentialy the same in principle as the R-33 which recieves updates mid flight without the need for a missile warning to be given. Some are saying the the RWR can sense the data link which is the main point of contention here as others disagree entirely. So we are up in the air (excuse the pun) over this whole subject as we can not agree and also do not have the information to conclude. Also, another example of STT guiding a fox 3 missile without giving a warning can be found in the F16 which Skysurfer gave an example of.

We are on the same page with this I asure you. This is what I want to know. There is no reason from what I understand that would make the missile just a giant AIM-7 and have to track the same way but others are saying to the contrary. Also, all the information they are quoting to justify what they are saying either makes no sense or is only relevent to the AIM-7 which also makes no sense.

I know they are diferent radars, which is why I said "Equivilant". SAM does not give a missile warning and niether does PD-STT (SARH/DL) meaning that they effectively function the same way for at least a large portion of the missiles flight time. Meaning that the missile can track on an STT lock and not give a warning. "Equivilant", not the exact same but similar behaviour for both.

Yes, so basicaly if the target does not get a missile warning when a Phoenix is fired in PD-STT (SARH/DL) then it is the F14's equivilant to the F16's SAM and STT.

This does not help either though does it. You have access to it? Are you an F14 Pilot? It is not classified is it becuase you can buy phisical copies, so why not quote and link the exact segment which confirms what you are saying? This is why it sounds like speculation from everyone.

I am not buying it. If you could sense DL via the RWR you would most certainly tell the pilot about it. That is extremely important information. I think you are just speculatiing to be honest. I don't know whether there should or should not be a warning which is why I asked the question in the first place but what you are saying does not seem to confirm your suspicions to me. If the RWR gets a missile warning then it simply would not be due to sensing DL as that seems absurd but it would be becuase the radar is chirping to prevent ECM from overwhelming the tracking. I doubt this would be the case though as PD-STT launches are useful over long ranges which would not be the case with a missile warning. Considering also that even the russians had similar missile in the same era which would not give a missile warning up to a certain point when guided in STT as they were fox 1's. I doubt very much that this was an oversight for the US especialy considering the missiles ultimately had the same function. The Mig-31 for example does this and what I have read from others the Phoenix in PD-STT (SARH/DL) does the same thing. Again, I am not saying you are wrong at all. Just that you are not making much sense when talking about the RWR using DL to sense a launch and other are tellingme information to the contrary. So basicaly without the manual or Heatblur actualy saying you or I are right then we won't have the answer.

TWS Transimits Data link in the same manner as PD-STT so you will get that information and it is important to tell the pilot about it if you can sense it via an RWR. So, STT = 'lock' STT + DL = 'launch' Would also equal TWS= Jet on the RWR Scope. TWS Jet on scope + DL signal= Launch but maybe not at you so warn other pilots in the area. This is not the case though is it.

This manual is for the F14A also and I can not find it anywere, do you have a link? And one for the B?

You are not homing in on the DL signal you are homing in on the information it gives you to home in on. RWR does not sense DL, if it was set off via DL then it would go off every time you fire a missile too. Also, everytime you get signal from an AWACS or other friendly aircraft. Also, Heatblur say SARH/DL all the way to target.

Ok, you just confirmed what I thought. The missile does not give a warning in PD-STT SARH/DL. Thanks very much. I brought SAMs into it becuase you brought SAMs into it. You were the first one to bring them up. ;p

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Homing means homing in on the guidence signal wether it be radar or data link. Also, the vast majority of SAMs are fox 1's which again does not justify what you are saying about the Phoenix when in SARH/DL. It saying Homing does not mean a missile warning as again TWS uses SARH/DL too and TWS does not give a missile warning.

If you can not supply us with references then you have to understand that all of this is speculation. You seem to be thinking that the Phoenix must track like a fox 1 when fired in SARH/DL except TWS uses SARH/DL too. Without references then we won't get anywhere. Also, if you don't have the manual then how did you come across the information?

What would you do if fired on with a missile warning from over 50 miles? There are long range fox ones which guide in with no missile warning. The R-33 is designed like this and it guides over 160 miles with no warning until it reaches a certain stage and then is guided fuly using the radar. Why would the Phoenix which was built at the same time and is more advanced not have this ability? Nothing sounds wrong about it, it is just that there is confusion over how an AIM-7 tracks in SARH and how a Phoenix tracks in SARH/DL.