Triggerjo23

You need to read through the comments a bit beter I think. We are not discussing this from a position of complete ignorance. We know the radar modes and it seems like you are confusing fox 1's with fox 3's. A lot of the information posted seems to be from Wikipedia after googling SARH.

Are you asking how a TWS signal looks to a bandit vs STT. TWS no lock warning STT lock warning. When missile is launch, TWS no launch warning until missile is pitbul and for STT it depends on the radar mode and the capabilities of both the missiles and radar. Generaly for most modules in DCS it would give a launch warning but some do not do this even with fox 1's. As we were discussing, the Phoenix fired in PD-STT will give only a radar lock warning and not a missile launch warning as it is firing the Phoenix via SA-PD in SARH/DL rather than SA-CW. This is from what I understand but as I said I could be wrong which is why I asked about it here as I am unsure. So far I have not found an answer. "RWR" (Radar Warning Reciever), not Data Link Warning Reciever. Data Link is not transmited over the radar (microwave) spectrum as it is radio.

I think we are speaking to diferent languages here. I know the diference between STT and TWS. Also just because something is a signal does not mean that an RWR can pick it up. Anything outside of what it is tuned to sense is as good as static to a reciever.

He is saying that it might as no evidence to the contrary has been given. As stated, other missiles have the ability to track without a missile warning when fired from and STT lock such as the R-33 for example when fired from the MIG-31. What is being used to justify saying that the target recieves no missile warning in STT is that when it is fired from PD-STT it uses SARH/DL as tracking. This is the same as TWS and is essentialy the same in principle as the R-33 which recieves updates mid flight without the need for a missile warning to be given. Some are saying the the RWR can sense the data link which is the main point of contention here as others disagree entirely. So we are up in the air (excuse the pun) over this whole subject as we can not agree and also do not have the information to conclude. Also, another example of STT guiding a fox 3 missile without giving a warning can be found in the F16 which Skysurfer gave an example of.

We are on the same page with this I asure you. This is what I want to know. There is no reason from what I understand that would make the missile just a giant AIM-7 and have to track the same way but others are saying to the contrary. Also, all the information they are quoting to justify what they are saying either makes no sense or is only relevent to the AIM-7 which also makes no sense.

I know they are diferent radars, which is why I said "Equivilant". SAM does not give a missile warning and niether does PD-STT (SARH/DL) meaning that they effectively function the same way for at least a large portion of the missiles flight time. Meaning that the missile can track on an STT lock and not give a warning. "Equivilant", not the exact same but similar behaviour for both.

Yes, so basicaly if the target does not get a missile warning when a Phoenix is fired in PD-STT (SARH/DL) then it is the F14's equivilant to the F16's SAM and STT.

This does not help either though does it. You have access to it? Are you an F14 Pilot? It is not classified is it becuase you can buy phisical copies, so why not quote and link the exact segment which confirms what you are saying? This is why it sounds like speculation from everyone.

I am not buying it. If you could sense DL via the RWR you would most certainly tell the pilot about it. That is extremely important information. I think you are just speculatiing to be honest. I don't know whether there should or should not be a warning which is why I asked the question in the first place but what you are saying does not seem to confirm your suspicions to me. If the RWR gets a missile warning then it simply would not be due to sensing DL as that seems absurd but it would be becuase the radar is chirping to prevent ECM from overwhelming the tracking. I doubt this would be the case though as PD-STT launches are useful over long ranges which would not be the case with a missile warning. Considering also that even the russians had similar missile in the same era which would not give a missile warning up to a certain point when guided in STT as they were fox 1's. I doubt very much that this was an oversight for the US especialy considering the missiles ultimately had the same function. The Mig-31 for example does this and what I have read from others the Phoenix in PD-STT (SARH/DL) does the same thing. Again, I am not saying you are wrong at all. Just that you are not making much sense when talking about the RWR using DL to sense a launch and other are tellingme information to the contrary. So basicaly without the manual or Heatblur actualy saying you or I are right then we won't have the answer.

TWS Transimits Data link in the same manner as PD-STT so you will get that information and it is important to tell the pilot about it if you can sense it via an RWR. So, STT = 'lock' STT + DL = 'launch' Would also equal TWS= Jet on the RWR Scope. TWS Jet on scope + DL signal= Launch but maybe not at you so warn other pilots in the area. This is not the case though is it.

This manual is for the F14A also and I can not find it anywere, do you have a link? And one for the B?

You are not homing in on the DL signal you are homing in on the information it gives you to home in on. RWR does not sense DL, if it was set off via DL then it would go off every time you fire a missile too. Also, everytime you get signal from an AWACS or other friendly aircraft. Also, Heatblur say SARH/DL all the way to target.

Ok, you just confirmed what I thought. The missile does not give a warning in PD-STT SARH/DL. Thanks very much. I brought SAMs into it becuase you brought SAMs into it. You were the first one to bring them up. ;p

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Homing means homing in on the guidence signal wether it be radar or data link. Also, the vast majority of SAMs are fox 1's which again does not justify what you are saying about the Phoenix when in SARH/DL. It saying Homing does not mean a missile warning as again TWS uses SARH/DL too and TWS does not give a missile warning.

If you can not supply us with references then you have to understand that all of this is speculation. You seem to be thinking that the Phoenix must track like a fox 1 when fired in SARH/DL except TWS uses SARH/DL too. Without references then we won't get anywhere. Also, if you don't have the manual then how did you come across the information?

What would you do if fired on with a missile warning from over 50 miles? There are long range fox ones which guide in with no missile warning. The R-33 is designed like this and it guides over 160 miles with no warning until it reaches a certain stage and then is guided fuly using the radar. Why would the Phoenix which was built at the same time and is more advanced not have this ability? Nothing sounds wrong about it, it is just that there is confusion over how an AIM-7 tracks in SARH and how a Phoenix tracks in SARH/DL.

Not quite the case. The missile is still tracking semi-actively via data link. TWS is also semi-active which is why both PD-STT and TWS are tracking in SARH/DL untill the moment they go pittbull or the radar goes flood. I don't think that the radar will change modes though when in PD-STT at a certain time though as the update said SARH/DL all the way to target. P-STT however does not act as SARH/DL and it will give a missile warning all the way to target. This does not matter as much though considering the fact that P-STT is only realy effective up to 30 miles and when your missile has a long burn time and can fly realy fast then you are not as disadvantaged by this.

@Crash2 So what you are saying is that the missile launch in PD-STT using SARH/DL does not give the target a missile warning? Somewhat like the R-33 I am guessing.

Yeah my point there was not that it gets an RWR warning, my point was that it has a sensor which simply tells it that a missile has been launched. Someone was trying to make the argument that you should not get a warning if you don't know who the target is and I was stating that as an example to the contrary.

Yes precisely my question. The DL transmission should mean no missile warning and the PD-STT should mean more accurate and faster refresh to the missile guidence. That seems logical to me but we won't know if we are wron unless we get an answer from HB or actual linked documentation. The DL signal would not be enough to tell the targeted aircraft that a missile has been launched as there is so many other DL transmitting objects in the enviroment. Also, the DL signal is not spotlighted either or else the radar would not be in PD-STT on the targeted aircraft so it is not like the signal would be any stronger or anything. The higher fidelity tracking information from PD-STT means the missile does not have to go active. No of course this could all be wrong but I don't have any documentation to say otherwise.

Then you should still get a warning to tell you a missile is in the air. It would be stupid not too if you had the capability to sense a missile fired in TWS even if you do not know who it is fired on. The A-10 can sense missiles being fired the principle occurs here. They are not always sure they are the target but the missile warning is given anyway. You know why?.. becuase it is the safe thing to do rather than take a missile to the face. Also, how many Jets are injecting DL signal into the enviroment from all directions. The missile will recieve the DL signal via an address just like every other DL recieving object. With all of the signals being sent out I doubt very much an RWR will be able to tell the diference between the backround signal from everyone elses DL. DL transmission should not give an RWR warning because it should not be distinguishable from the backreound noise unless you can decode it. If you are unwilling to link documentation then we won't get an aswer will we. If you won't link any documentation then what you are saying simply seems like it is speculation rather than fact, so help us out and link where you learned what you are saying.

Yes exactly, and considering the fact that TWS missiles are tracking using DL it would if Tharos is right give the target a missile warning or there should be at least some indication that a missile is in the air. Also, considering that if you fire on a cranking opponent who then turns in whilst speeding up then they could potentialy get inside the 16 seconds TTI or even below. In that case the missile impact point would be close to or before the TTI reaches 16 seconds which would mean either very brief or no missile warning as the missile only goes active at sixteen seconds. The missile must be able to hit that target whilst guided via DL or missiles would be defeated far too easily. We are asking the same question and I think only HB can realy answer it definitively. Iron Mike has disapeared though. :(

The RWR does not detect data link signal as is does not come from the radar. As I said, if that was the case then your RWR would know every time a missile was fired in TWS too, which is not the case is it. I don't think there should be an argument on this part, DL is not sensed by an RWR. If it is transmited by the target then the same issue airses, why can you not sense a TWS missile being fired if that is the case. TWS tracking is done via DL too.

@Jackbilt24 The AIM-54 is best when fired on long range targets only if they meet these perameters: They are flying slow at launch and then go full power to top speed. (Only realy applies if you know they must fly towards you and fight you). If they are cranking and you expect them to turn in or know that they must. (Generaly best at above 20-40 miles). They are well under Mach 1 and are somewhere between 30-40 miles. It is all about either the weapon control system and when it tells the missile to go pitt-bull or how well they can evade.