DeltaMike

I think I had good timing -- about the time I got in was about the time all the drivers started working. That said, I'm pretty sure if I didn't touch anything -- if I just plugged the thing in and let it set itself up -- it would have worked right out the box, and not much worse than it's working now.

So, what if we can go outside DCS, and get a post-processing filter? Here, I test ReShade 5.0.2. G2, 6900xt, 100/100/1.0. Observations FXAA and SMAA have a similar effect on frame time and FPS. While FPS is grossly about the same as with MSAA, I feel there's a significant improvement in frame time. About two and a half milliseconds, which is something I suppose. Both have a noticeable effect on shimmering. Right out of the box, FXAA results in much better definition of "chunky" objects like buildings and bridges, also quite a bit less shimmering along runway edges. SMAA maybe not quite as good. Neither one makes power lines look worth a darn. Both of these settings are adjustable, particularly SMAA. Tweaking those settings can result in a pretty darn good image. And of course you get the other ReShade effects. I've been flying around with Curves, Lumasharpen and SMAA this morning and it looks great actually. Even on NTTR. The apron still looks like you've taken just a little too much acid to be flying. But, flying over the city, it looks... well, like a brilliant sunny day in the desert. MFD's look quite a bit nicer, but you know how much I like sharpening filters, YMMV. If you want to try this, a couple of hints The only way to affect the VR image is to select and adjust your effects from within VR. You do this by bringing up your Steam Dashboard. ReShade helpfully puts an icon on your toolbar. Check "performance mode" to select and apply effects. Uncheck "performance mode" to tweak the effect There is no need for hotkeys, which is good, because they don't work anyway. Or more specifically, the hotkeys only work on the mirror. Which is kind of cool in itself, you can separately adjust the appearance of the mirror, from what you see in VR. Useful I suppose if you're shooting video, I guess? Keep in mind your target framerate. You kind of want to keep that below 20ms if you can. That makes it practical to use motion reprojection at 90hz. Also it keeps you from puking. Lot easier to hit that target with post-processing than with MSAA, and results are better than "splitting the difference" with supersampling. Not bad for a cost of one millisecond basically. Not bad at all.

Well, the final resolution is gonna be 2100x2100..... But, I guess the point is, if I'm understanding correctly -- if you're gonna undersample anyway, there's an argument for using the superior scaling algo, plus you get the sharpening filter besides (which in my experience helps text considerably). Interesting. Even now, some of us have noted, something is handling the scaling, and it's not doing a half bad job. 100/90/1.0 really doesn't look bad at all.

The size of the rendered image scales with the square of pixel density. Let's start with 3100x3100 per-eye, which is about what you want the DCS frame to be, pre barrel distortion. That's approx 9.6m pixels x 150% = 14.4m x .77^2 = 8.6m 8.6/9.6 = 89.6% sqrt*(8.6m) = 2923x2923 aaaaand we were both wrong. Hopefully somebody will check our figures, otherwise I'll have to get my daughter the math major to check it, and and deal with the eye-rolling and heavy sighs. New users take note: just adjust one at a time, makes the math WAY easier Question in my mind is, does pushing resolution in Steam increase the amount of information available to FSR? To my understanding -- and I don't know, this is a total "black box approach" -- I think the system works like this SVR and WMR send a "request" to DCS to render a certain frame size (regulated by Steam resolution settings) DCS can either comply or not (regulated by PD) The resulting DCS frame is sent to the compositor for barrel distortion and scaling So we can see where FSR does its magic -- at the level of the compositor -- but I don't see how it could improve performance without decreasing the DCS frame resolution to begin with. In my testing, ScaleFactor has the same effect as PD on GPU time and FPS.... One way to test this might be to flip the numbers and see if it makes any difference. Try 100/100/1.0 with a ScaleFactor of 0.95. Or 100/90/1.0 without using FSR at all. All three give you the same DCS frame size of about 2900x2900. I'd bet my own money the performance would be the same; question is, whether the aesthetics would be any different. Regardless. I've been kind of pushing the idea that undersampling just for the purpose of adding MSAA isn't a great idea. I think what you've shown is, it's OK to undersample a little bit, especially if you let FSR handle the scaling, and the result is pretty darn good. I say, bravo!!! Belissimo!!! New users, take note. There are several strategies to deal with frame time spikes Reduce your settings (either resolution or graphics) to shift the curve to the left Reduce frame time variability (an option with Big Navi, unclear to me how you would do this with NVIDIA) Increase your target frame time by adjusting your refresh rate (which is like hitting the easy button) People tend to be afraid to try the latter for fear of inducing VR sickness, but as you've shown, that's simply not the case Also, you've done a yeoman's job tuning the 3070. NVIDIA should sponsor you, except to the extent you're cutting into 3080 sales... eh, screw em. Those things are expensive.

^Interesting. Although... aren't you undersampling just a tad? I get a DCS frame size of 2800x2800, vs 3100x3100 which is what my system renders at 100/100/1.0. No? That said, interesting approach. I dunno about trying to run say 100/50/1.0 and trying to layer MSAA over that, I've tried it and it's not pretty. But... interesting approach. Gets you into that range where FSR can really work its magic, huh. Have you tried something like 100/100/1.0 with a ScaleFactor of 0.9? Do you think there's a difference?

^I thought ReShade sharpened up my MFD's quite a bit, with a negligible performance hit. No effect on shimmering of course

Observations: 1. MSAA gives the best result in terms of reducing shimmering in the cockpit, on shorelines, and on runway edges, and also does the best job of defining structures such as cranes, bridges and powerlines, at the approximate expense of running 150% resolution 2. Supersampling using steam settings has an intermediate effect on performance and cosmetics. Significantly reduced shimmering in cockpit textures, somewhat reduced shimmering along shorelines and runway edges, and a modest improvement is the resolution of ground structures such as bridges and power lines. Not as good as MSAA, but not as expensive performance-wise, and considerably more granular. 3. It does not appear that the DCS setting "SSAA" has any effect on performance, or visuals. Not clear that it is doing anything in VR. 4. Likewise, whether or not Steam Advanced Supersampling is applied does not appear to affect performance, and does not appear to affect shimmering in cockpit textures, shorelines or runways. However I got the feeling it may result in better definition of ground structures such as bridges and powerlines. It doesn't cost anything, so I suppose it's worth trying. DISCUSSION Testing was done with a 6900XT which can presently run the G2 at native resolution (100/100/1.0) with little difficulty, however it results in a very "hard" image with considerable shimmering evident along edges. I'm assuming this is due to pixilation; the individual pixels are hard to resolve visually but when the head is moving (as it always is in VR) we can see the action along edges. Easiest to see looking at coastlines or on runway edges although it also shows up in cockpit textures. Certain structures -- cranes, towers, certain buildings, chimneys, posts -- are severely affected. The NTTR map can be very distracting because of this. Distant aircraft go through a transition as you approach. Larger aircraft may be visible as a well defined dot up to 20 miles away. Then the aircraft disappears, and upon further approach, re-appears as a squirming, pixelated blob that slowly resolves into a recognizable aircraft. It is not clear to me that this degrades game play, but it can certainly be distracting. The solution would be to apply some sort of anti-aliasing. Traditionally, VR has relied on supersampling, in other words, rendering an image significantly larger that what is displayed in the headset. Crunching that image down to fit has an anti-aliasing effect in flat screen mode, and adds an extra dimension in VR. In older, low resolution headsets, it gave the impression of looking at a high resolution world through a screen door, albeit at the expense of losing some definition in text legibility due to "squirminess." Essentially we were trading resolution of detail for a nicer "big picture." MSAA is an anti-aliasing technique that focuses primarily on edges, and as a result is at least theoretically more efficient than supersampling. Back in the day, the theory was, you could use supersampling to get the "screen door effect," then use MSAA to sharpen up and stabilize your edges, and that would give you the best image in VR. Unfortunately, MSAA is not particularly efficient in DCS, because of the way DCS handles rendering. Many still like the effect, and are willing to live with the performance hit. But with modern, high resolution headsets, we seldom have the power to run both supersampling and MSAA at the same time. For most of us, if we have the power to try anti-aliasing at all, we will have to choose one or the other. MSAA does a fine job of softening the image, although at great expense performance wise. Supersampling to an extent somewhere between 100 and 150% of native resolution is not quite as good as MSAA at softening up the image, but it can take the edge off while saving a few milliseconds in GPU time. I got the definite feeling Steam's Advanced Supersampling is doing something, at no measurable cost. I agree with other observers, that the DCS SSAA setting doesn't seem to be doing much in VR. Oddly my GPU time went up a little, frames stayed the same. Thus, possibly doing something, I'm just not sure what. Note, this doesn't leave a whole ton of good options for people with GPUs that can't quite drive the G2 at native resolution. Supersampling is out, by definition. The alternative is to dial down resolution to a point where MSAA can be applied, either by using Steam settings, or by using a scaling mod like FSR (or some combination of the two, which is an active area of research). No guarantee this will work, as scaling introduces its own artifacts. FSR, according to many reports, is superior to whatever protocol WMR is using, and many players are satisfied with the resulting cosmetics. However, in my testing at least, gameplay may suffer due to significantly reduced spotting distance. (Note: shadows off for this test. It's not the actual numbers that matter, it's the relative cost and benefit)

Woohoo! It's a little complicated getting it set up, take it one step at a time First goal: play around in WMR home, there's a lot of REALLY cool stuff to do in there. Learn how to use controllers and mouse, learn how to pull up your desktop. Reference: https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c06433655 Second goal: Play around in SVR home, which isn't quite as much fun but it has its moments. Learn how to bring up your menus and settings. You'll need "the runtime" -- Steam VR (SVR) -- and your WMR driver: Windows Mixed Reality for Steam VR (WMR4SVR). Both are free downloads from the Steam store. Reference: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/mixed-reality/enthusiast-guide/using-steamvr-with-windows-mixed-reality Third goal: take at least one flight in DCS with a minimum amount of frustration. I would suggest setting Steam Global Resolution to 80%. Look for the slider under "General" or "Video" tab. Both sliders do the same thing, adjusting one adjusts the other (yes, that's stupid). Don't worry about your Steam Per-App or WMR4SVR settings just yet. In DCS settings, set textures high, civ traffic off, vis range medium, water and clouds low, cockpit shadows off, terrain shadows off, AF 16x, cockpit displays 512. Grass off, trees and detail factors somewhere in the middle, pre-load somewhere in the middle. Cockpit global illum, MSAA, SSAA, SSAO, SSLR, heat blur, depth of field, lens effect, motion blur — all off. Set pixel density to 1.0 and never touch that slider again, as long as you live. Strap in for a free flight in the Caucasus and enjoy your first day. I imagine you will find it glorious. Note, when you fly close to the ground you'll probably see some stuttering. Don't worry, we will iron that out for you. Let us know when you're ready to start tuning. We will need information about your framerates, your GPU render time, and some measure of render time variability. There's an inexpensive utility you can download from the Steam store called fpsVR, it'll give you all that info in real time and it's well worth the money.

yw Yeah I was watching my son-in-law in action the other night. Tuning in flat screen mode, I take it, consists of putting every slider all the way to the right, and then (if you can) brag about what FPS you're getting. "What does that do?" "I dunno, I don't care, I'm putting it at eleven!" Tuning in VR is totally different; it's all about making the game playable: It doesn’t make you puke. Motion is reasonably smooth. You can see well enough to play. You can read your MFD’s, for example; and can spot your targets. The 3090 can accomplish those things with one hand tied behind its back, all you gotta do is run your G2 at native resolution (100/100/1.0) and you're done, basically. Everything else is peripheral. Believe me, when you're trying to put ordinance on a target, or trying to catch that 3-wire, the last thing going through your mind is, "Darn ED! When are they gonna give us some decent tree detail factors!" Trying to pick up a chopper right on the deck, flying in straight out of the sun... Strike yelling in one ear, Bitchin Betty in the other... "If only the clouds were prettier, I'd wear that little bastard out"

Andrew -- Are you having a lot of frametime spikes? Look in fpsVR -- how many red lines do you see in your GPU time graph? If it's a lot you either need to Render fewer pixels Lower your settings (especially MSAA and shadows) Lower your target frame rate Reduce frame time variability (which is a probletunity with AMD GPU's, dunno about NVIDIA) Also be aware, certain hardware issues can also cause this. Faulty USB cable Outdated USB drivers USB conflicts PCIE issues (for a while there PCIE4 wasn't working at all, although it's been working for me) Power delivery issues (?maybe) If you're not seeing a bunch of red spikes -- and if you're consistently holding 50fps, I'll bet you aren't -- what you're describing is "judder." Some of that can be a result of a frametime / refresh rate mismatch (which you would get at 50fps, but not at 45 or 30), but from your description, suspect you're simply dealing with the stroboscopic effect we would expect from panning a camera rapidly through an environment that's being rendered at a relatively low frame rate. The bane of movie producers everywhere. (You'll see it when you go to the theater to watch Top Gun Redux, which was filmed at 24fps) That's why God invented motion smoothing. Get your frames up to 90 and it will cut most of that stuff out (hard to get rid of it completely). Note, using motion smoothing also lowers your target frame rate to either 45 or 30 fps, depending on what you set your refresh rate to. So it solves a lot of "stuttering" problems. Causes its own artifacts of course. No free lunches around here, it seems. VR isn't for everybody, that's for sure. The G2 isn't for everybody either; tuning this thing is a pain in the gonads.

XPlane 11 might be a better test for several reasons. (I'll give it a whirl if I can get my stinkin internet working)

I think Steam VR is downloading an update. It's pesky that way. Make sure you have automatic context switching off in WMR (ie so you have to manually have to press Win-y to switch mouse from desktop to HMD context) -- weird bugs if you leave it to "auto" Sorry you had a bad experience with the 8K. It's what we all want, I think; that famous Pimax FOV and G2 level central resolution. Shudder to think what kind of hardware it would take to drive it at native resolution.

I don't see how people fly without VR. Personally I think the GPU and the HMD should go together as a package. With your GPU, a Rift S would be OMG perfect, if you can get your hands on one. That would be a great way to check VR out, it'll be a good experience right out the box. The visuals will be gorgeous. Take comfort in the idea that, if you hate it, you can turn around and sell the Rift S for what you paid for it. Just keep telling yourself that. Rest of us are all like, "He's not going back lol." Which is true.

ooooo I may need to get that. Good to see AM4 is still alive, otherwise I might have been pissed off RE: latest OB, yeah I thought things all of a sudden got easier. Been out of the game for a while but I remember for a while there ED was in the habit of slipping VR improvements in there without announcing them. Guess we must be a tough crowd. See? We love you ED!

6900xt will run circles around a 3070. May not matter with a quest2 but it will with a G2. Secret to big Navi is, you have to set a minimum GPU clock speed. That takes care of the spikes. Nobody sets out to buy AMD on purpose, not for flight sims. But don't shoot yourself in the foot just to get NVIDIA. You gotta do the best you can with what's available

Don't understand what you mean by "from the menu forward"

Worth thinking about what kind of pointing device you want. I went with a gaming mouse, the extra programmable buttons are nice. Depending on how your cockpit is set up, a trackball might work better (you can strap it to your leg or velcro it to a knee board). Miles's pontctrl is probably the ultimate device if you can get your hands on one (google the forum). Also vaicom/voiceattack adds a LOT to VR and is well worth the price. It is possible to use VR controllers as pointing devices but meh. Gets old fast.

Agree re: shader mods. We should probably steer new users away. Partially to keep their heads from exploding, and partially because something (?WMR ?AMD) is already doing a halfway decent job of scaling. MSAA looks great, especially on the NTTR map, but keep in mind, if you undersample and use MSAA it cuts your spotting distance in half. As an alternative, consider 100/130/1.0, MSAA off, steam advanced supersampling on. Doesn't eliminate the shimmering but I think it helps a little, and you should get higher frame rates besides. AF maxed out either way ETA: RE: SSAA. Another knob to twiddle. That makes four by my count. Way I look at it, there are two numbers. A) How many pixels are rendered B) How many pixels are displayed. As long as A>=B, which I think gives you the best central vision, I'm a happy camper. Which net of everything, you are doing, you're rendering 105% no? Not sure there's any magic to be had, twiddling one knob as opposed to another. Not much, anyway. Found out I can run 100/100/1.0 with MSAAx2 if I turn shadows off. Kinda surprised me. Am an even happier camper now. Shadows are pretty but they flog my GPU and don't contribute to game play. Terrain shadows are buggy anyway. Prob for the best, if I ever get back into MP. Remain unconvinced forcing DX11, or not, does anything

I'd look at either the quest 2 or G2. G2 has higher native resolution. You probably wont be able to run it quite at native with a 3070; but it still looks great even at 80 or 90%, and it leaves you an upgrade path. Oculus -- erm, meta -- software is easier to use and I feel the motion smoothing is a little better. If you're interested in Oculus games like Lone Echo, and might want to play beat sabre without firing up your computer, definitely go with the Quest 2. G2 is a comfortable headset, reminds me of the Rift S (I hear the quest 2 isn't quite as comfy). It is THE headset for DCS. The sharper the image, the better DCS plays. And the G2 is definitely sharp, maybe too sharp for some tastes. I bought mine a couple of months ago, and it looks like all the bugs have been ironed out. I've had no problems with the cable, tracking works perfectly, sound is good. (And will admit, windows seems to handle the microphone and headphone management a bit better for the G2 than it did for my old Rift S. I'm not a huge fan of SteamVR but WMR is pretty solid work) They are closer in price than you might think, once you buy the cable for the Quest 2. If you go with the G2 let us know, there are a couple of steps involved in getting it set up, we can break it down for ya. DCS works fantastic in VR and it. is. amazing. Just wait. First time you spawn in on the deck of the carrier is unbelievable, a moment that will be seared in your brain forever. Go for it. Immediately.

I don't think there's any way to swoop in and grab the basket in one motion. I use several steps 1. Fly in formation off the tanker's left wing. 2. Slide into pre-contact position and make the call. (Voice attack is worth the price of admission, just for this call) 3. Get stable right behind the basket, like almost close enough to touch it. 4. Then ease forward to hook up. (At this point you don't have to look at the basket, and probably shouldn't) Don't forget step 1. Learn how to fly in formation before you try to hook up.

I'm using it with a winwing joystick. Works fine.

Interesting question (in my mind at least) what makes a GPU good for DCS. Always seemed like it was TMU count. Maybe VRAM does make a difference. By that logic, it would be interesting to see how the 6900XT stacks up against the 3080ti in DCS. AMD definitely has its quirks. Weirdly, AMD CPU's work like a champ right out of the box. At this time I don't think it's possible to make the GPU work without fiddling with Adrenaline settings. Which has its own idiosyncratic logic. I really like the Ryzen series. I never intentionally set out to buy an AMD GPU but it always seems to work out that way. Like, literally always. 13 and counting. That seems to apply to most of the people posting 6900xt results. "Somehow wound up with this thing and by gosh ... it works!" Some of it is the G2 itself. What is that thing supposed to do, anyways? What is its niche? How do we define "good" in this context? I think the ideal headset would have the FOV of a Pimax, and the central resolution of a G2. Coupled with a GPU that has enough ass to run it at native resolution, AND apply MSAA. That HMD may exist (eg, Pimax 8K) but I don't think the GPU exists. One fall back position would be, "G2 at native resolution." Which has its limitations to be sure, but at least it is possible to run it that way without having to spend too much money. (And imo not running it any other way raises the question, why did one buy a G2 to begin with)

^agree completely. Did you get a chance to try the 3080 in MP?

Kind of hard to go wrong with a 3090... Start tuning using free flight over caucasus, that allows you to focus on GPU performance without worrying about CPU bottlenecks If you have any old AMD drivers on your system, get rid of them completely using DDU Make sure your motherboard bios is up to date Plug G2 into a USB port directly wired to the motherboard (usually best to pick one on the back, you might have to try a couple to find one that works best). That big ole cable is very finicky. You want the latest version of that cable (how old is your headset?) and it needs a USB port it likes, and that USB port needs the latest drivers. Clean out your shaders caches and let's get on with it. Settings: 1. In DCS, why don't you just start with the VR presets. Set pixel density to 1.0. NOTE: turn MSAA off. 2. In Steam VR, set global resolution to 100%. There are two places to set this (General and Video) and they do the same thing. Just focus on the "Video" tab. Note, "100%" is a bit more than your native resolution, it should be about 3100x3100. Trust me, just roll with it. 3. Start DCS, then go back into Steam VR settings. You can either hit the menu button on your right controller (the one with three lines) or else take off your headset and pull up the settings menu from the destop app (the little teeny SteamVR app). Under "Video," click "per-app" settings, and set THAT resolution to 100% also. Take her for a spin. You should be nailing 90fps up in the air, looking up at the sky. From there, I'd work on my DCS graphics settings next, add as much eyecandy as you must without making it puke. EXCEPT for MSAA. Hold off on that for now. You should be able to set vis range to high, at least. AF to max, trees to max. Water to medium at least. Should be able to run some shadows but you may not be able to max that out; medium cockpit shadows and flat terrain shadows is probably a good bet (if you must). Clouds is a whole nuther thing, maybe best to leave that on low till you get a chance to read up on it. Just mess around with it, but don't mess with MSAA just yet. Now. Once you find a formula that works for you, you can finally start work on your antialiasing. Two ways of doing that. The easy way is to increase SteamVR resolution. Just don't get yourself all twisted up. You have three knobs to work with (Steam General, Steam Per App, and DCS Pixel Density). Don't try to adjust multiple variables, they all do the same thing. Pick one. (I usually adjust Steam Global because it's not buried under so many submenus, and it takes effect on the fly. You can pick whichever one you want. ONE.) The harder way is to try to use some MSAA. Harder because it crushes performance. I would only change one at a time. So for example compare this: -- Steam Global 100, Steam Per App 100, PD 1.0, MSAAx2 to -- Steam Global 130, Steam Per App 100, PD 1.0, MSAA off Which one do you like best? Good news is, VR optimization has come a long way, you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you can do with eyecandy. Bad news: even with a 3090, trying to supersample AND use MSAA at the same time may make your system puke. Strike that: it will make your system puke. The old days of running PD 1.4 and MSAAx4 to prevent yourself from going blind with your Rift CV1 are over, my brother. You have WAY too many pixels to drive now, and your new headset is not a pig, and it does not require that kind of lipstick. (The other bad news is, MFD readability still sucks donkey balls. We can discuss solutions at a later date; don't sweat it for now.) You don't have to use an upscaler like VR Perf Toolkit or FSR for VR with a 3090. We can discuss why you might want to but first get it running, then we can talk about that stuff. Also don't worry about your WMR settings just yet, set all that stuff to auto for now and don't worry about motion reprojection. You'll eventually need "motion vector" to smooth out some of the judder when you're flying down low, but even without it, flying around at 15 or 20,000 feet everything should be smooth as butter. Many of us are using fpsVR to monitor the effect of these settings; it's an inexpensive utility you can find in the Steam store. It isn't perfect -- you'll run more smoothly without it -- but it's accurate and highly useful for tracking your GPU times. Some of your graphics settings will have a subtle effect on FPS but a measurable and reproducible effect on GPU time. You're flying blind without it, so just shell out the four bucks and get it. Don't get yourself all twisted up in knots. Just get the thing running. Native resolution (100/100/1.0) without MSAA. From there, baby steps.

No. "Judder" as we are using the term here is not dependent on frame processing time, the same effect is seen in film. It has to do with angular velocity of objects in the environment vs FPS. It's a stroboscopic effect. It's not really an issue when you're just sitting in SVR Home. It's a big issue when you're flying at 500kts/500ft, or doing a snap roll in the A4E; and so we want FPS as high as we can get it, either by investing in hardware, lowering settings, or using synthetic frames ("ASW" or "motion vector")