2 vs 2 Strategies for Russian Pilots?

Comrades,

For a few months myself and a fellow defender of the motherland have struggled in vain to defeat the capitalist enemy and their "AMRAAM" missile with our trusty R-27ER and R-77.

We have experimented with F-poleing, notching, combinations of them, you name it, but are very much struggling to come out of a 2 vs 1 situation with a kill and no losses, let alone doing the same in 2 vs 2.

The main problem we have is the TWS mode the F-15 enjoys; engaging two targets at once is already a big deal, but doing it without them having a launch warning? Thats a scary advantage.

Our main success seems to be coming from launching an R-77 or two and then disengaging rather than guiding the missile in to pitbull, but of course this rarely works against an opponent with his wits about him.

So, I as you, what strategies would you suggest for making the most of the capabilities of the Russian aircraft in Lock-On 2.0? Is it possible to "mad-dog" an R-77 without giving your target a launch warning? Finally, Are there any tell tales for a TWS amraam launch, other than visually identifying or a change of bearing?

On a side note, the manual states that the Mig-29S is capable of engaging 2 targets simultaneously, but I assume this hasn't been modeled in the game? Any particular reason for this? I feel I need all the help I can get!

Over and out... :thumbup:

Use altitude displacement with your wingmen, avoid direct approaches from your base to the enemies, and avoid being predicable, like flying low in area where everybody knows your team likes to be at. Absolutely avoid being alone. Even if you only have one wingman, when in trouble seek for location of closest friendly fighters for cover.

You need at least 3 planes to counter 1 or more F-15's. When your being painted by more than 5 seconds from an enemy position and your BERIOSA is 2 leds from the end, ask a fellow pilot to cover for you and execute notch (doing this at high speed doesnt help much). This is called the BVR wheel. It will cause the f-15 to have problems switching between targets and come closer (PRF management is not automatic and is difficult to manualy manage multiple targets with changing aspects), where an r-77 or R-27ER does enjoy an advantage, at which time it will also be almost impossible for F-15 to keep using TWS but use STT lock instead (no auto antenna management modelled in LOMAC).

Due to these limitations of the SIM, the F15's advantage below 15 miles quickly evaporates achieving parity instead. At that instance usually the best pilot wins no matter the plane hes flying.

Most people fly low and dont fire further than this range anyway and probably thats why the stats show so much equilibrium (90% or so of the people have between 0:1<-->3:1 kill ratios regardless of planes).

Thanks for your reply! Great tips!

With regards to being painted, does this mean when the RWS switches from beeps with a long pause to ones with a short interval, or does it mean the solid lock tone?

Cheers!

EDIT: Ah sorry have just seen your edit, thanks!

Not solid tone. If you see intervalled beeps you could be locked by TWS already, or not (doesnt give warning) but you know your being painted. At 2 leds from end of BERIOSA, the probability of an enemy stealth AMRAAM shot increases. If you dont have the tactical advantage you should assume incoming AMRAAM's and ask your wingmen to cover you from another direction and altitude. When they do, the f-15 will probably switch for them, at which time your wingmen will again switch places with you on the attack. remember each time you do this the F-15 will have a delay to react to it, make mistakes or hesitating. Take advantage of this to progressively gain the initiative.

Dont be discouraged by failure, it takes alot of practice.

Also, when the AMRAAM first goes active, it does so rougly 15 seconds before impact if flightpaths remain constant in the frontal aspect. Thats the time you got to evade it.

a good trick i have employed online has been the altitude displacement combined with the notch. One russian bird goes mid alt (low enough to be able to dive for hills if needed) and the other goes low. They proceed on F15 in trail while the high bird uses jamming - once being painted as bait, the low plane enters notch to mask. once the high bird is engaged, the low plane is maneuvering in Vert scan using terrain masking while f15 pursues wingman.

That with 25nm ECM burn through...hmmm.

Might work against impatient F-15 drivers who prefer shoot the first target they see before scanning the airspace under that threshold properly. I have learned to wait and scan all altitudes first, because most migs and SU's will refrain from shooting at that distance anyway. :)

Even I am struggling now:helpsmilie:I have almost convinced my self that its the new 3D missile models lol...the only solution I can think of Is more patience and to do some single player training to know what I can and cannot evade and at what altitude.

To do this in a MiG would not be my choice of Russian platform, the R-77 is a great benefit but without TWS your going to struggle outwitting an F-15. So my view will be using a Flanker.

In the initial stage of a 2v2, one notching while the second presses is not really going to work against 2 F-15's, the pressing Flanker is going to be put under enough pressure engaging just one F-15 nevermind two.

The F-15's should notice the second Flanker go into a notch and will be wary of its presence, plus they will now be free to exploit the lone Flanker. This will end up with one Flanker running or being downed and the second facing a challenge of finding the F-15's with little SA, possibly end up running as well as being detached from his wingman, not a good start.

In this scenario you are already onto a hiding, you are only at an advantage when you have one F-15 cold, your best bet is to engage early and use your ER range and f-pole to try and force the F-15's defensive, though you will have actives inbound you must time yourself to be able to trash them and continue a press. What you don't want to happen in this situation is for you both to end up running while the F-15's give chase, so it takes a bit of balls to hang on to your ER and force them suckers cold, then trash their 120's and press on.

Now if your lucky at least one F-15 should be cold so you can then use your EOS to aquire him while your wingman presses the other. This now becomes a situation where you can get clever, maybe like said with one notching low while the other stays high and presses. But if you find when you both turn back in after the initial engagement that you are faced with 2 F-15's Hot again, then its just a case of rinse and repeat until you can close the space and be in the more advantageous position to win. Remember to constantly change altitudes and aspect so as to add confusion to the enemy and hopefully not pick up any loose AMRAAM's. And what is mightly important is that you are both fully commited together, aware of each others approximate position in relation to you and constantly relaying what each other is doing.

Above all else be aggressive but not gungho and alternate with your pressing if you let the F-15's get you both cold then you might aswell fly home.

Also a point of note, if your online try and read how they are flying against you, if they go cold early and like to keep a good distance from you then don't press too much as these guys just ain't going to get killed and your going to end up with an active too hot to handle, just play their game and out range them, it will most probably amount to nothing but at least the result is equal and you lived.

shooting SARH missiles while trashing AMRAAMs worked in FC1, in FC2 you must be smarter than that but less of a hotdog. The BVR wheel is a start. BTW its practised in real life in western air forces it also works with AMRAAM armed fighters.

shooting SARH missiles while trashing AMRAAMs worked in FC1, in FC2 you must be smarter than that but less of a hotdog.

Thats the point your not trashing the AMRAAM while shooting SARH your getting the F-15 defensive, then trashing the AMRAAM to then reapply pressure. This is not a fool proof method, like I said your already losing before you've begun in this scenario.

Really great tips so far guys, thanks.

The idea of a BVR wheel had already occured to me, but it seems like something that will take a lot of practise and very good reading of the TWS to pull off, which I am rather lacking at the moment :joystick:

Any info on the 2 target engagement mode hinted at in the FC 2 manual?

a good trick i have employed online has been the altitude displacement combined with the notch. One russian bird goes mid alt (low enough to be able to dive for hills if needed) and the other goes low. They proceed on F15 in trail while the high bird uses jamming - once being painted as bait, the low plane enters notch to mask. once the high bird is engaged, the low plane is maneuvering in Vert scan using terrain masking while f15 pursues wingman.

That's 1 F15. We are discussing 2 F15's.

Comrades,

 

For a few months myself and a fellow defender of the motherland have struggled in vain to defeat the capitalist enemy and their "AMRAAM" missile with our trusty R-27ER and R-77.

 

We have experimented with F-poleing, notching, combinations of them, you name it, but are very much struggling to come out of a 2 vs 1 situation with a kill and no losses, let alone doing the same in 2 vs 2.

 

The main problem we have is the TWS mode the F-15 enjoys; engaging two targets at once is already a big deal, but doing it without them having a launch warning? Thats a scary advantage.

 

Our main success seems to be coming from launching an R-77 or two and then disengaging rather than guiding the missile in to pitbull, but of course this rarely works against an opponent with his wits about him.

 

So, I as you, what strategies would you suggest for making the most of the capabilities of the Russian aircraft in Lock-On 2.0? Is it possible to "mad-dog" an R-77 without giving your target a launch warning? Finally, Are there any tell tales for a TWS amraam launch, other than visually identifying or a change of bearing?

 

On a side note, the manual states that the Mig-29S is capable of engaging 2 targets simultaneously, but I assume this hasn't been modeled in the game? Any particular reason for this? I feel I need all the help I can get!

 

Over and out... :thumbup:

FC2 skies are meant to be ruled by the F-15. You have first to be aware of that when flying other fighters.

If you engage an F-15 thinking it's an even fight, you will die faster than you think because of that wrong mindset.

I'm not saying that it's mission impossible especially if you fly against a less experienced pilot.

So here is my point of view:

On a Mig29S: The "ONLY" technological advantages you have over a F-15 is your EOS/R-27ET system, but it's quite useless in headon BVR. Other advantage is your more accurate RWR's leds in case you decide to stay hot, dodge and press. Finally you have the helmet WVR acquisition mode for off-bore sight R-73's shots (providing you get a chance to close in for a dogfight!).

on the other hand, you have weaker radar, and most importantly,your R77's have 15km less range (means you will be in his NEZ way before he gets into yours), and you have less fuel.

Conclusion for Mig29S against a decent eagle driver:

In 1vs1: limited choices if you have a CAP (station area to hold for a certain duration), you will most probably have to put the knife between the teeth and go dance in close with the 120's...

In 2vs2 your goal would be to outnumber one of the F-15's at a certain moment using teamwok and communication (create a loose deuce scenario), but if the F-15s are having good teamwork also, you will be most probably screwed (killed or forced to leave the station).

Conclusion for Su-27:

In 1vs1: limited choices, forced to dance with fire..with almost the same range as the 120 (only 5km difference) , your ER still needs guidance until impact which ruins completely your extension window. So unless you dodge successfuly the 120's and press/chase, you are condemned.

In 2vs2: you have better chances than in MiG's as you can hold the sky longer without suffering fuel issues. Key here is teamwork/communication and you can definitely counter 2 F-15's after a long and terrible fight, the eagles should have the final word though if all pilots are more or less even in term of skills.

I think it would be interesting to see an authentic multi-mig-29A/G barrier vs. F-15's and A-10's holding a particular location.

You can outnumber F-15's up to 2:1 with fighters, and your station is near the airfield (say 100-50km) where your job is to protect an object (for example a factory or the airfield itself). Your goal is to chase off the A-10's at all costs, but your short legs aren't as big an issue because your CAP is close to base.

You can organize your CAP any way you like, including keeping fighters on reserve. You are free to use any tactics you wish in the airspace provided. You may NOT attempt to chase enemy aircraft that have left your assigned airspace (that just invites sneaky maneuvers against you).

(only 5km difference) , .

How many seconds of flight does the 5km range manifest itself? ;)

Given the speed difference between those two missiles, there's a relatively 'close in' sweet spot for the 27ER where it will get to the AMRAAM carrier well before the AMRAAM will get to you ... leaving you free to F-Pole and once you see the hit (or you decide it missed) you can go to the notch right away.

I think it would be interesting to see an authentic multi-mig-29A/G barrier vs. F-15's and A-10's holding a particular location.

 

Easy. Just get 1 MigRat © in among the A-10's and those darn 15'ers and their spamraams © will finish the Ghey Tens © for you. :D:D:D

Awww, speaking of yourself? :D

Easy. Just get 1 MigRat © in among the A-10's and those darn 15'ers and their spamraams © will finish the Ghey Tens © for you. :D:D:D

Awww, speaking of yourself? :D

Given the speed difference between those two missiles, there's a relatively 'close in' sweet spot for the 27ER where it will get to the AMRAAM carrier well before the AMRAAM will get to you ... leaving you free to F-Pole and once you see the hit (or you decide it missed) you can go to the notch right away.

What kind of range are we talking here GG? Around 25km? Is this still effective if the F-15 goes cold and extends at full power after launch? Or is this negated by the F-pole?

Flying last night on 51st server (great server guys!) we had much more success with better use of vertical separation. IT definitely seems to be making the simultaneous engagement harder for the F-15s.

Unfortunately I don't remember the numbers. You'll need to do some testing/math yourself. And no, it isn't effective if the F-15 goes cold. If he does, you do the same! No point in sticking around.

And yes, vertical separation is a problem because the modeled radar is missing one of the most basic functions: Target tracking with antenna in TWS.

Remind me... this is the mode where you can bug targets outside the set scan zone, in RL?

No, I think what GG means is that you can change azimuth and elevation of the radar sweep to match the targets overall spread before you designate. That is absent from lockon (you only got 2 choices of azimuth and none for elevation).

What you are mentioning resembles like memory modes that are dependent of target "good behavior" to re-aquire. Im not even sure that exists except when targets drop lock.

No, this is a more advanced function like the F-16's SAM that are speaking of - the antenna will track 1 or 2 pre-designated targets by going outside of the search zone periodically. You can also achieve this with datalink or with AESA, but I'm not referring to any of those.

All I mean is simply thing: In RL, the antenna tracks your TWS target in elevation and azimuth. You do NOT have to slew the antenna to keep track of the target (ie. not let it fly out of the scan zone). It is automatic.

Remind me... this is the mode where you can bug targets outside the set scan zone, in RL?

Remind me... this is the mode where you can bug targets outside the set scan zone, in RL?

We turn IC for export.lua off, install ERI, then we fly togheter on the 104th server, and you will see what it means....

:thumbup: