Black Shark 2 harder to trim?

I finally had time to take BS2 out on a date late last night, and I noticed it was considerably harder to trim straight and level than the original. It was extremely difficult to pitch down to exactly 10 degrees because the helo wanted to nose up, but I don't recall ever having that problem in BS trying to gain forward momentum. Once I got it going at cruising speed, BS2, it was difficult to trim for straight and level flight as well. The helo has a tendency to yaw to one side, and when I corrected it with the controls and got it flying straight, but as soon as I trimmed, it'd yaw the opposite direction. I know ED said they tweaked the rotor physics, but could that really have made the helo this much harder to fly?

BS2 is great though, and I had a blast last night just flying around and even spent an hour creating a mission where I started on a FARP, and seconds later, two packs of super movers whipping by really low breaking sonic booms right in front of me as I waited to take off. The SOUND was AMAZING! Whup whup whup...boom boom... It was so much fun I stayed up until way past 3am even though I have to work today. :D

Speaking of sound, maybe it's my computer, but the sound of super movers heard from inside the cockpit was truly awesome. I heard them coming before I could spot them, and it was so unreal siting in the pit and hearing that at night. I must have restarted that mission just to hear and see them whipping by for like half an hour. However, when listened from outside the pit, it was terribly distorted. Anyone else experiencing this?

Btw, If it weren't for cichlidfan's generosity, I'd still be flying OBS. There are some really great individuals in this community. :thumbup:

There's something else that has been bugging me. This is vital and I hope ED consider adding the ability to get in another flyable without having to exit the sim. It would be nice to land the Shark, hop in an F/A 18C and go super duper badass on baddies without having to exit to start DCS: F/A-18C.

And last but not least... PLEASE...PULLL-LLEASEEE...give us 3d map in mission editor and finally be able to place the units on the map in one go. I know you can open two instances of DCS to see where you've placed your units, but that's still a lot of hassle.

Quick Start Guide P. 41

"The Ka-50 will pitch up having trimmed the helicopter in level

flight after pressing the trimmer again.

The flight control system is not perfect and accumulates errors in the

angles/speed (depending on the mode) it is assigned to maintain. When

you press the trimmer for the second time, the new angles/speed assignments

include the errors accumulated since the previous trim setting. To

avoid excessive pitch changes when trimming, trim often when airspeed

has changed."

hmm... This happened from the get go, though. This is how it always went. I started on the runway and I raised the collective, and the helo lifted off the ground. I then pushed on the cyclic to get ten degrees nose down, and this was when I'd always get the up and down nose wobble which made it very hard to get to the ten degrees down pitch. Basically, it's like aiming a rifle at a target on a pitching boat deck. I understand I do not have to get that exact ten degrees down to get moving, but I was just curious why I haven't been able to like I could in OBS.

Huh. Just now I do recall another behavior which I had forgotten about that wasn't in OBS. The helo nose would rise as soon as I applied enough collective and the helo wanted to go backwards instead of up and hovering. Perhaps this is why I had to fight the cyclic to the point of wobbling the helo up and down which made it impossible to pitch down to the exact degree of your choice? I'll try trimming the cyclic forward before pulling on the collective.

Man, I knew I shouldn't have deleted OBS because I would love to compare the two tracks.

Yeap. Must trim cyclic forward prior to take off.

Kingsnake, I think a bunch of people here can relate to that. :D

Huh. Just now I do recall another behavior which I had forgotten about that wasn't in OBS. The helo nose would rise as soon as I applied enough collective and the helo wanted to go backwards instead of up and hovering. Perhaps this is why I had to fight the cyclic to the point of wobbling the helo up and down which made it impossible to pitch down to the exact degree of your choice? I'll try trimming the cyclic forward before pulling on the collective.

Youre not alone. I wondered about that behavior the last days and tried to found the issue on my settings.

Is that really the correct behavior of the Ka-50? Do we have on a checklist that we need to trimm the cyclic forward before raising the collective?

EDIT: Please guys, have a look at these videos. Cyclic neutral. Slowly raising collective. Is that normal?

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Yup, ground center is different from hover center. What keeps you in place on the ground is not the same input that keeps you in the same spot in the air.

Trim or apply some forward cyclic, just enough to get it slowly rolling forward with the brakes released. Then raise the collective and make corrections when lifting off, should result in a stable take-off.

Has been like that since the first version btw, for years.

Thank you, EagleEye. Thought I was alone in this. And it's not the settings. I jotted down all the joysticks curve settings from BS, and input them in BS2.

Strange, I don't recall original bs behaving this way, but I'm often wrong.

Yes. In BS2, Ka-50 moves like that in my system, too. If I'm not wrong, it was really different in BS1. Plus, the attitudes in the air were slightly different in BS1.

But why?!

If this is (in BS2) Ka-50's normal behavior, then why Ka-50 attitude in BS1 and BS2 is different from each other?

And which is actual Kamov that should be? BS1 or BS2?

I feel that BS2 is a bit more nose-up as well. My assumption is that they have adjusted rotor-mast forward tilt.

If this is (in BS2) Ka-50's normal behavior, then why Ka-50 attitude in BS1 and BS2 is different from each other?

I do think you first have to establish that there actually is a difference between the two before asking why the difference is there. ;)

They tweaked the rotor physics but didn't explain why. I'm sure that has something to do with this. Yes, BS was different and easier to handle in the air and less prone to rotor snapping to pieces when you're barely over speeding while flying straight and level.

I have a feeling I had been flying the wrong way. I think I have to pay more attention to speed when making sharp turns, and don't turn like it's gotten ailerons.

They tweaked the rotor physics but didn't explain why.

A hinge was slightly off.

I'm sure that has something to do with this.

There is nothing. This is not new. You have exactly the same behaviour in both. Video is being uploaded to show this. ;)

So it MUST be a controller issue!? 2 of my squadron mates with MSFFB2 just do NOT have this behavior. We tried it online and both don`t have this much nose-up like me and like leafer and so on. We all do the same. Going to a hover and don`t touch the cyclic. Both mates with MSFFB2 starting like in BS1, except my Ka-50 took-off like in the video above. How can this be? We have all the same situation. Clean configuration, no wind, same fuel.

I have no clue why it is so different for me and my squadron mates?

To be honest, I'm not convinced there is any issue at all beyond pilot habits. If they have no trim at all and take off, it'll spike with nose up. If they have first gone into a hover however, then it's obviously not the same - then they are trimmed for a hover, not for standing on the ground!

EDIT: Meh, the video apparently got broken. :(

How much of a spike you get obviously depends on how aggressive your input is, in this case I tried my best to make the same input in both cases. (I still was a bit "too" gentle in the second one though, which shows if you look real close.)

And that is why I can`t get it out of my head. They not trimming, they just give collective, have a little nose up (yes) and going to a hover.

When I get light on the front wheel the nose goes up so badly that my tail bumps on the ground. And thats not the case for both of my mates. Yes, it`s really strange and I have no idea why it is the like.

EDIT: Hopefully my MSFFB2 still works and I will try that with it.

The video is still being processed and I'm about to leave work. I'm not doubting you, but originally, I thought it might be my memory playing trick. But with a few people coming forward, I'm not too sure it's just my imagination.

In BS 2 the tail will hit the ground as you take off.

In BS 1 the tail will remain steady and you will take off in a smooth hover.

BS 2 is also way harder to trim and tend to jump a lot as opposed to BS 1

That video still hasn't processed but it's odd that some people obviously doesn't experience this because it's quite jarring.

I'm starting to suspect that something went broken in the transfer. I'll have to re-do it I suppose. But no, the tail did not hit the ground in either of them.

I'm starting to suspect that something went broken in the transfer. I'll have to re-do it I suppose. But no, the tail did not hit the ground in either of them.

Oh, that's weird, I always see the very behaviour as shown in EagleEye's videos as long as I don't touch Cyclic, including the tail touching the ground.

Oh, that's weird, I always see the very behaviour as shown in EagleEye's videos as long as I don't touch Cyclic, including the tail touching the ground.

See attached track. All takeoffs are with no cyclic input, ground trim (that is, the default). To make the tail touch the ground I have to, on purpose, apply way too little collective, causing a pitchup with the nose leaving the ground, but not enough to get the bird airborne. As it should. Same behaviour is present in BS1.

The solution to the "problem" is to not take off with collective only from a ground-trim cyclic - that is essentially a takeoff with some aft pressure, since that default includes a slightly "stick-back" component. (If it didn't, the helicopter would roll forward on the ground, since the boom is tilted forward.)

Essentially, the solution is to use proper takeoff procedures. :)

noseup.trk

Well, thing is that there were no changes made that would account for that as far as I know, and when I do the same thing here I do not get the behaviour you are suggesting.

My only guess would be that something is set up differently in the games - for example an old curvature or axis saturation change in BS1 perhaps? I have default mappings on both as far as axes go and flight behaviour in BS1 and BS2 is identical for me. There might be minor effects from BS2 having the new atmospheric system, but when I set atmospheric conditions identically in the two I get no difference in this respect. (The minor differences I experience are so extremely minute that I can only ascribe them to the obvious inability to fly exactly identically twice.)

I'll see about running both BS1 and BS2 at the same time and see if they're able to both get the controller inputs, that would ensure they both get exactly the same commands.

I do think you first have to establish that there actually is a difference between the two before asking why the difference is there. ;)

I've seen that you were right. :)

Well... Whatever it is...

I said there were some differences. Yes, but I must say, the controls in BS2 is more stable for me. I need very little and sensitive movements on joystick for trimming. And I've learned quickly the Ka-50's maneuver reactions in BS2. I remember I had some issues in BS1. (May be I was a recruit!)

Well, there's a lot of placebo happening with the flight models. Also us testers found several changes that was just our imagination when we looked closer to it. :) (For me, BS2 testing gave me the first occurance ever of feeling like I was "fighting the AP" while flying, something a lot of people had been complaining about - but after some closer looks into it I found that it was simply a case of me being rusty with the whirlybird - yet for a while I would have sworn there were radical changes implemented in the AP channels!)

See attached track. All takeoffs are with no cyclic input, ground trim (that is, the default). To make the tail touch the ground I have to, on purpose, apply way too little collective, causing a pitchup with the nose leaving the ground, but not enough to get the bird airborne. As it should. Same behaviour is present in BS1.

Ah, so I'm too shy with Collective ;) Thanks for the hint, I'll give it a try :)

However, this nose up attitude is far from being uncontrollable.