Journey of a new pilot...

[Bushmanni]

The basic problem with both fights was that the Mig wants to have a one circle fight after merge and you want to have a two circle fight and the Mig gets what he wants as all it takes is a little reversion of turn direction for the Mig to do it.

 

In the first track the AI doesn't manage to track you after the merge as he loses speed and control of the aircraft in the vertical while you fly a wide circle around him. Generally if you go for a vertical fight at the merge you want to be pointing upwards to get use of the gravity assist in turning. You drop your speed but keep it still a bit higher than the Mig at all times. You try to turn with the Mig with in-plane turns while having higher speed which doesn't work out as the Mig has shorter turn radius due to slower speed and hence stays out of your gun sights. You would have had to either slow down to be slower than the Mig or use out of plane maneuvers (rolling scissors or displacement roll) to gain turning room. At 1:35 you make a high yo-yo that finally slows you down and gives you more turning room and tighter turn radius to get in to his six. When you overshoot you happily fly in front of him to be an easy target for revenge. If you are going to overshoot you should pull up into vertical (or to the side) early enough to not fly into his gun sights and make a lag roll to get back to his six.

 

In the second fight it seems like you are purposefully trying to initiate a one circle fight but still going for in-plane sustained turn rate turn instead of small turn radius. The Mig gets you in his sights at 0:43 with very little effort merely 17 seconds after the merge. While it's a difficult shot for the Mig if you know how to defend against it, it would still be a dangerous gamble in your part against human opponent. After this you use your turn rate advantage and simply fly almost to his six. If you had slowed down at 1:12 you would have actually got there. This time when you overshoot you have so much more speed than the Mig that the the window for gunshot is practically non-existent. At 1:52 Mig gets chance for a snap shot. At 1:57 you reverse your turning direction and throw away the possible two circle fight you might have got and wanted. At some point after 2:08 the Mig might have got another single chance to shoot if flow by a human but this time you use your turn rate advantage like you should and then slow down for the final turn for the gun kill like you should have done at 1:12.

 

AI is good for practicing visual tracking of the bandit and making maneuvers in relation to the other plane but tactically AI gives you a lot of slack in that he shoots you only in super easy situations and he doesn't turn very effectively and maintains a relatively steady speed over the course of the fight.

[gamerbwoi]

As a new F15C driver Im hardly qualified to give any advice, but here it is anyway :smilewink:

 

Dogfighting is basically your last resource in the F15C (or it should be, but missles are still WIP) as a fellow newcomer Im more or less concerned with learning all of its primary offensive systems and as an air superiority fighter that would primarily be its radar.

 

So I wish you all the best but just remember, dogfighting will probably not get you very high up on those scoreboards, not on its own at least.

 

In online play, 9 out of ten 'dogfights' i encounter start with BVR missile engagement- Once youve evaded these youre normally within range of guns.. so why waste missiles?

[gamerbwoi]

Bushmanny said well.

 

On the other hand dogfight, in modern air combat is not primary desired skill. With modern fighters such is F-15C you should study BVR, using radars, sensors ... classic dogfight is last resort. But I'm not an expert.

 

If you want to enjoy in classic dogfight I recommend you to try some WWII sim, or wait for DCS WWII.

 

Before going into further study, it is recommended to read manual from DCS. Every module has detailed manual.

 

To share your flight, experienced pilots, prefers saved tracks here on DCS forum. So, maybe there is no need to upload videos on youtube. Saved tracks should be enough.

 

Good luck!

 

Does anyone actually play online? Evading a missile BVR is easy.. Dogfighting in a server actually happens A LOT!

[TAW_Blaze]

In online play, 9 out of ten 'dogfights' i encounter start with BVR missile engagement- Once youve evaded these youre normally within range of guns.. so why waste missiles?

 

It's not really a matter of wasting them. I could probably do 2-3 out of 10 gun kills if I wanted to, but that would mean a much higher risk of being killed. What really matters is survival. If you go WVR or you even commit into a brawl you're focusing on that one guy and usually there's another 2-3 that can just jump you and kill you and there's not a lot you can do about that. Winning the brawl can take up to multiple minutes and with every second of turning and looking at that guy your SA is going down and even if you win that fight you might get killed after because you have no idea what's going on.

 

If it's a serious scenario that I really care about I'll fire missiles at any given point if I think it does something good for me. The purpose of firing a missile is not only to kill someone. Obviously most fights will start BVR, the only real exception is when someone jumps you that you never saw coming. Most of those fights will result in immediate death or a very low percentage for win by the victim.

[TAW_Blaze]

Does anyone actually play online? Evading a missile BVR is easy.. Dogfighting in a server actually happens A LOT!

 

Evading a missile is easy, because provided you didn't get too close to the guy you can just turn tails and run home. Evading a missile and continuing the fight without being in a disadvantage from that point is difficult.

 

Since most people have no concept of what BVR is and because missiles are supbar to what they should be it's arguably far easier to push WVR without risking certain death. Many missiles are fired with low pk for different reasons other than achieveing a kill and while evading them might be easy but they hand something to the agressor, it's called the advantage. If you're a guy that just tries evading missiles with occasionally returning fire from bad positions hoping to make it to the merge I can guarantee you that anyone half decent in BVR will punish you and kill you 10 out 10 no problem.

 

As for why dogfights happen as often as they do in mutliplayer, it's because the average DCS pilot has either zero SA throughout his entire flight, or he loses it immediately at the start of a single engagement. The average multiplayer fight is a bunch of those guys fighting against another bunch of the same group, guess what happens. Most of those dogfights are ambushes and the victim has extremely little chance of survival. Ultimately if your goal is survival you'll only push WVR if you know you can get away with it, and that takes a hell of a lot of experience and SA. Otherwise you're just gambling.

Edited May 13, 2014 by <Blaze>

[gamerbwoi]

Dont have the time to make a video on how easy it is to evade missiles, So here is the guy who taught me.

There is nothing gambled..

EDIT : Air to Air tutorial..

Edited May 13, 2014 by gamerbwoi

[Buckeye]

You guys are awesome for taking a look in TacView and giving me some insight. I've gotta run to the office now but I will respond when I get back home tonight.

[TAW_Blaze]

Dont have the time to make a video on how easy it is to evade missiles, So here is the guy who taught me.

There is nothing gambled..

EDIT : Air to Air tutorial..

 

As I said dodging a missile can be easy but maintaining a position of advantage at the same time is difficult. Molni is demonstrating how you can defeat missiles but in those fights he doesn't care about maintaining a position of advantage or returning fire at all. I know him from another forum and we discuss stuff with him now and then, he really knows his stuff, but I have to say some of those AA10s were way too close to being comfortable. One of them should have been a proximety kill, if I'm honest with you.

 

PS. Gambling was meant for going into the merge without being sure of returning safe.

Edited May 13, 2014 by <Blaze>

[GGTharos]

Actually BFM it's the core skill of a USAF air to air pilot, and they're trained very well for it. Other air forces do the same.

 

On the other hand dogfight, in modern air combat is not primary desired skill. With modern fighters such is F-15C you should study BVR, using radars, sensors ... classic dogfight is last resort. But I'm not an expert.

[Bushmanni]

I think pure dogfighting with modern fighters in any sim is mostly done as having fun or training with friends. People who really want to just dogfight online usually fly WW2 stuff.

[blkspade]

I think pure dogfighting with modern fighters in any sim is mostly done as having fun or training with friends. People who really want to just dogfight online usually fly WW2 stuff.

 

Its not even about going in with the intention of purely dogfighting, but being able to when the moment arrives. Given the that the F-15 itself is primarily well suited for BVR, the Mig/Su drivers that know what they are doing and like to live, generally have a WVR endgame in mind.

[GGTharos]

The F-15 does just fine with dogfighting, both in-game and in RL.

 

The real life Su drivers will have pretty much the same criteria as eagle drivers for buying a merge.

[Frostie]

There used to be a couple of jet fighter dogfight servers in the lobby, in FC2 dogfight servers were quite popular.

[blkspade]

The F-15 does just fine with dogfighting, both in-game and in RL.

 

The real life Su drivers will have pretty much the same criteria as eagle drivers for buying a merge.

 

While my experiments with the AFM do prove this to be quite true, a helmet launched R-73 is a major concern. In my practice gun-zo practice vs the AI Su-27 I can come around just ahead of him and get a VS lock, and maybe get a head-on snap shot kill. I have yet to enter that scenario vs a human flanker driver post AFM, but the R-73 would come into play here and it can be launched with great success ahead of an Aim-9 shot.

[Buckeye]

I don't claim to be a pro pilot. All I have is a long experience all the way back from the original lomac.

 

Now with the new flight model, I spend more time flying the plane rather than flying the mission/ fighting... So now we're pretty much in the same boat....

 

My biggest advice: All those studies about cornering speed, dogfighting tactics, etc. are good. However at the end of the day, all these info must be natural and instinctive and without any effort expended into thinking all of these things while flying. In short; flying by the seat of your pants. That goes with practice.

 

That's what I am working on now: getting the turning and speed control to become instinctual. Once I get that done, I will be seeking some coaching 1 on 1 with some of the better pilots.

 

Might seem boring, and it'll be especially disappointing to those who never improve at it. For them it'll look like that they just randomly get shot down everytime. It's a mindgame that can be a lot of fun if you have a good opponent. I respect that you prefer fighting visually, but you shouldn't refuse to try other things that are great but look bad at first. Might actually like it in the end! :)

 

However if you do try it, and you don't have someone to train you, you'll get show down without getting any kills for weeks. But that's kind of the same with dogfighting too, except that you see the bad guy.

 

As for why isn't there any real gun server with a lot of people, I don't know. Probably not due to lack of interest, I suspect there just isn't a group that can afford hosting another big server besides the other one they run. Should change in the future, I definitely like changing the environment when I get a bit bored.

 

About the fights:

 

#1: I won't comment, I honestly have no idea if flying like that pre merge will ever work against a human. For me, it was just weird :D

 

#2: Other than what you said, your biggest mistake here is reversing your turncircle at 2:00. You just saved him more than 90 degree of turning when he has zero turnrate due to his speed by reversing in front of his nose. Basically you're flying on corner all day which is great but you're taking too long to take advantage. When you have so much speed advantage you should use some degree of vertical to use G better. He'll also have a hard time pointing his nose at you since he's low on energy. He also had a bunch of opportunities to shoot you because you stayed in the horizontal all the time.

 

I fully intend to learn and master BVR as well, just want to learn WVR first due to my interest in it. I know the importance of being well rounded and I will dedicate just as much time mastering the BVR out of necessity (and like you said, I might really like it).

 

Re #1) yeah, I haven't figure out the "best merge" tactic, so I was just doing random things. That wouldn't be a standard call. I normally approach at corner speed and pick a turn direction, then go from there. Noted on everything else, thank you. I think I need to learn to identify my advantages sooner/better and act on them.

 

There used to be a couple of jet fighter dogfight servers in the lobby, in FC2 dogfight servers were quite popular.

 

That would be great, I'd love to find servers like that. I hope that with the F-86, Mig-21, and eventually the F18, that more "dogfight lovers" will join the community and the demand for such servers will grow. That is the primary reason I don't want to move to Falcon BMS...I like the community, the game, and the direction of the sim, and I want to remain a part of it.

[Buckeye]

The basic problem with both fights was that the Mig wants to have a one circle fight after merge and you want to have a two circle fight and the Mig gets what he wants as all it takes is a little reversion of turn direction for the Mig to do it.

 

In the first track the AI doesn't manage to track you after the merge as he loses speed and control of the aircraft in the vertical while you fly a wide circle around him. Generally if you go for a vertical fight at the merge you want to be pointing upwards to get use of the gravity assist in turning. You drop your speed but keep it still a bit higher than the Mig at all times. You try to turn with the Mig with in-plane turns while having higher speed which doesn't work out as the Mig has shorter turn radius due to slower speed and hence stays out of your gun sights. You would have had to either slow down to be slower than the Mig or use out of plane maneuvers (rolling scissors or displacement roll) to gain turning room. At 1:35 you make a high yo-yo that finally slows you down and gives you more turning room and tighter turn radius to get in to his six. When you overshoot you happily fly in front of him to be an easy target for revenge. If you are going to overshoot you should pull up into vertical (or to the side) early enough to not fly into his gun sights and make a lag roll to get back to his six.

 

In the second fight it seems like you are purposefully trying to initiate a one circle fight but still going for in-plane sustained turn rate turn instead of small turn radius. The Mig gets you in his sights at 0:43 with very little effort merely 17 seconds after the merge. While it's a difficult shot for the Mig if you know how to defend against it, it would still be a dangerous gamble in your part against human opponent. After this you use your turn rate advantage and simply fly almost to his six. If you had slowed down at 1:12 you would have actually got there. This time when you overshoot you have so much more speed than the Mig that the the window for gunshot is practically non-existent. At 1:52 Mig gets chance for a snap shot. At 1:57 you reverse your turning direction and throw away the possible two circle fight you might have got and wanted. At some point after 2:08 the Mig might have got another single chance to shoot if flow by a human but this time you use your turn rate advantage like you should and then slow down for the final turn for the gun kill like you should have done at 1:12.

 

AI is good for practicing visual tracking of the bandit and making maneuvers in relation to the other plane but tactically AI gives you a lot of slack in that he shoots you only in super easy situations and he doesn't turn very effectively and maintains a relatively steady speed over the course of the fight.

 

Awesome response, I am going to be sitting down and watching the track while analyzing your comments. Really appreciate you giving me such detailed feedback.

[Buckeye]

I'm embarrassed to have to ask, but how often should I be using my rudder in the F15? I feel like as I soon I get into a vertical fight (an area I should have an advantage over a Mig in), I am completely 100% f*cked. I either have to fly at way to high of speed to get a good turn radius to close, or I end up going to slow that I can't control the nose at all (even with speed above 250kts). This leads to one of two things:

 

1) I lose control and crash eventually (or 2 happens and eventually I get pissed, go nose down, and crash on purpose)

2) Neither of us gets a shot worth a sh!t on the other and we fly around forever aimlessly

 

It is seriously driving me insane and I feel like I'm completely missing something.

[TAW_Blaze]

I'm embarrassed to have to ask, but how often should I be using my rudder in the F15?

 

More or less whenever the plane starts to depart at low speed. In some cases you can use rudder at higher speeds to help starting a maneuver, it's down to your imagination but if I'm at corner or close to it I probably won't use rudder.

 

I feel like as I soon I get into a vertical fight (an area I should have an advantage over a Mig in), I am completely 100% f*cked. I either have to fly at way to high of speed to get a good turn radius to close, or I end up going to slow that I can't control the nose at all (even with speed above 250kts).

 

Don't forget the MiG uses SFM so he won't have half the problems you do. He can point his nose at 200 knots perfectly at you.

 

With the PFM I feel like no matter how you lose your speed if it goes it never comes back until you're done so you want to be careful going vertical. Generally can't afford to do more than 2 loops at best but now and then you can barely do 1. If going vertical gives you something that can finish the fight in a very short time then I'd say go for it otherwise it might not be worth it because when you come back to the horizontal the other guy might have a better turnrate and can beat you in the long run. Not really sure if I'm right about this, in any case others will correct me if I'm not.

 

I fully intend to learn and master BVR as well, just want to learn WVR first due to my interest in it. I know the importance of being well rounded and I will dedicate just as much time mastering the BVR out of necessity (and like you said, I might really like it).

 

I wouldn't be surprised to have some dogfight servers again with higher population since we just got this PFM.

[Bushmanni]

I'm no expert in vertical either but here's something I know about it. Main difference in vertical maneuvering as opposed to horizontal is gravity which makes a constant g and speed 360 turn in vertical asymmetric while its symmetric in horizontal. When plane flies straight and level gravity pulls it down with one g and wings pull it up with one g hence net acceleration is zero. When the pilot flips the plane upside down the plane is still trimmed for one g level flight and wings pull one g but now down as does the gravity hence the plane arcs down in a "two g" turn (the pilot still feels only one g). In both cases wings work for one g but the difference in plane trajectory is considerable.

 

When you loop aircraft in vertical you get gravity assist when your lift vector points below horizon and gravity resistance when lift vector points above horizon. If you approach a bandit nose pointing above horizon and after merge you both go for vertical turn you will get gravity assist for the majority of your turn while the bandit gets gravity resistance for the majority of his turn.

 

Other use for the vertical is to trade speed for altitude and then turn with smaller turn radius and then dive back and recover some of the lost speed like is done in high yo-yo or displacement roll.

 

Energy fighting with Eagle is still somewhat mystery for me so I wont go there.

 

Vertical maneuvering is in general harder to do optimally so a better pilot might go for it just for the sake of taking advantage of the relative skill gap. Besides energy management it's also harder to keep track of the bandit visually in the vertical.

[GGTharos]

I'm embarrassed to have to ask, but how often should I be using my rudder in the F15? I feel like as I soon I get into a vertical fight (an area I should have an advantage over a Mig in), I am completely 100% f*cked. I either have to fly at way to high of speed to get a good turn radius to close, or I end up going to slow that I can't control the nose at all (even with speed above 250kts). This leads to one of two things:

 

You should be using a bit of rudder in high-AoA situations, especially when slow. You will also notice that your stick inputs are sent to the rudder. Right now the rudder is not terribly effective, that's being looked at.

 

1) I lose control and crash eventually (or 2 happens and eventually I get pissed, go nose down, and crash on purpose)

 

... you crash on purpose? With that attitude you can't be my wingman, ever. No, I don't care how frustrated you are :D

 

2) Neither of us gets a shot worth a sh!t on the other and we fly around forever aimlessly

 

It is seriously driving me insane and I feel like I'm completely missing something.

 

You're missing the fact that you can manipulate the turn circle. Shaw's book should give you an idea how. But before that, you're probably missing the cues that tell you what your bandit's energy level is compared to your own.

[Bushmanni]

One thing sprung to mind about the acmis. You should employ guns defence maneuvers against AI when he's in guns range and nose pointing at you at least during practice to get more realistic feel of the flow of the fight as the defence maneuver can have big impact on your energy. Shaw's book has a pretty good explanation of various ways to defend against gun. The basic guns defence maneuver will also help you to see how to initiate rolling scissors which is very nice maneuver to be able to use. You will own every HUD fighter with it 100% of the time and it will look like magic to them even if you can barely do it right.

[GGTharos]

The rudders have nothing to do with the airbrake. I see airspeed loss when the airbrake comes up, but nothing magical like in the SFM.

[Buckeye]

You should be using a bit of rudder in high-AoA situations, especially when slow. You will also notice that your stick inputs are sent to the rudder. Right now the rudder is not terribly effective, that's being looked at.

 

... you crash on purpose? With that attitude you can't be my wingman, ever. No, I don't care how frustrated you are :D

 

You're missing the fact that you can manipulate the turn circle. Shaw's book should give you an idea how. But before that, you're probably missing the cues that tell you what your bandit's energy level is compared to your own.

 

Thanks, GGT. For the record, I would never crash in a meaningful situation (mission, online, etc)...I am the most competitive person I know, I'd never willingly concede defeat to any other person (the AI is just "meh" to me. When I fly in the 1 on 1 I created, on occasion I get myself so twisted and far away from the fight or FUBAR'd, it's quicker/easier to just crash and restart. Once I'm not so terrible I will probably be more patient with it, for now I am just eager to get better.

 

I def need to read the book, because I am not figuring it out on my own. My flying skills are improving, but my ability to identify the full situation I am in is not. I believe reading Shaw's book and lots of experience will help with that.

 

One thing sprung to mind about the acmis. You should employ guns defence maneuvers against AI when he's in guns range and nose pointing at you at least during practice to get more realistic feel of the flow of the fight as the defence maneuver can have big impact on your energy. Shaw's book has a pretty good explanation of various ways to defend against gun. The basic guns defence maneuver will also help you to see how to initiate rolling scissors which is very nice maneuver to be able to use. You will own every HUD fighter with it 100% of the time and it will look like magic to them even if you can barely do it right.

 

Thanks for the tip, I have the book now...just need time to read it. This weekend looks like a good time for me.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Why so obsessed with "dogfighting" ?

 

Wouldn't it be a lot more efficient to learn BVR first ?

[lunaticfringe]

No, because BFM is more closely tied to higher end levels of airmanship and handling of the fighter. All of the skills required to employ the jet tactically are taught as part of BFM; BVR only employs a subset, and all of those aspects are derived from BFM instruction.

 

Teaching BVR would be counterproductive, when an individual isn't competent with visual search, flying by sight, and generating a competent level of SA.

 

Thus BFM comes first. That's why they're called "Basic".