Journey of a new pilot...

[Buckeye]

Anyone have some bullet points for completing a coordinated turn in the F-15? I'm looking for what type of (generalized) inputs I should be having to achieve a turn that maintains speed and altitude. Obviously I understand that speed and G load necessary will be dependent upon altitude as well as other variables, I'm just looking for general guidelines that I can start with and practice to build upon. As always, thanks in advance.

[GGTharos]

F-15 coordinates turns automatically ...unless you mean something else, that isn't the meaning of 'coordinated turn'.

 

As for a turn that maintains speed and altitude ... bank and pull the stick back an appropriate amount? :D

[Buckeye]

Journey of a new pilot...

 

Ok, so if I'm flying 450 knots pulling 6 G's and maintaining .9 Mach, I need no rudder input at all? I thought I had read that initially you fed rudder in in the turn direction you're turning (bank right, feed right rudder) until the turn was established, and then you fought the plane trying to nose down with opposite rudder as needed (in this example, left rudder as necessary. That's totally wrong and all I need to do is bank and pull?

[Paradox]

SAS is a wonderful thing for an air superiority fighter. And for probably everything else.

[GGTharos]

That's right, the plane does it all for you. Look behind you while maneuvering, watch the rudders.

 

Ok, so if I'm flying 450 knots pulling 6 G's and maintaining .9 Mach, I need no rudder input at all? I thought I had read that initially you fed rudder in in the turn direction you're turning (bank right, feed right rudder) until the turn was established, and then you fought the plane trying to nose down with opposite rudder as needed (in this example, left rudder as necessary. That's totally wrong and all I need to do is bank and pull?

[Stuge]

Ok, so if I'm flying 450 knots pulling 6 G's and maintaining .9 Mach, I need no rudder input at all? I thought I had read that initially you fed rudder in in the turn direction you're turning (bank right, feed right rudder) until the turn was established, and then you fought the plane trying to nose down with opposite rudder as needed (in this example, left rudder as necessary. That's totally wrong and all I need to do is bank and pull?

 

Yes, like GG was trying to say, the F-15 automatically uses rudder to minimize slips during banking. You can see it for yourself when you look at your rudders and bank! This is more pronounced at lower speeds / higher angles of attack.

 

In general, no manual rudder input is required for a turn.

 

So what are examples of when you do want to use manual rudder input?

 

a) to prevent a spin that is about to begin, or to recover from one.

 

b) to fine-tune your gun shot

[Buckeye]

Damn this flying stuff is easy. Thanks gents!

[GGTharos]

It will try to take out all uncommanded yaw actually, Stuge - that includes turbulence and other fun things :)

[Stuge]

It will try to take out all uncommanded yaw actually, Stuge - that includes turbulence and other fun things :)

 

nice to know, thanks!

[Buckeye]

Got my first taste of MP, Blaze offered to practice some BFM with me. It was a blast . A couple other guys intruded on our fun (luckily I was able to kill them a few time as I didn't have such luck with Blaze haha) but overall I feel like I learned a lot. I'm more hooked to DCS than ever now that I can play it online.

[Buckeye]

Anyone flying tonight? I'll be looking for a BFM practice partner, I should be online for the next 6 hours or so.

[TAW_Blaze]

What are the rules in such engagments ? I played some not long ago and it kind of felt like "whoever turns first wins" .

Like taking 5 steps instead of 10 in a pistol duel :D

 

The merge is the most important moment of the fight, if you screw it you lost there's nothing special or surprising about it.

 

The only rule is that you don't shoot before the merge. Some people broke that yesterday and then they told me how I'm no fun when I said that's not nice. It's like going into a box match and getting shot in the face with a gun before the round starts.

[TAW_Blaze]

It is :) everyone makes mistakes, and they make mistakes on top of their mistakes. But in theory if you screw up the merge, you have a low chance to win.

[TAW_Blaze]

It is as far from boring as it ever gets. Try it out you'll see.

 

You can make a perspective of everything being boring and repetitve. I mean you just woke up, had breakfast, did your stuff, started up your PC, launched DCS and took off and did some more stuff. Then went to bed and rinse repeat just like any other day.

[Buckeye]

hmm, that is disappointing, Sounds a bit boring and repetitive :-(

 

It's very far from boring. To stick with Blaze's boxing analogy, merging is like tapping gloves before a boxing match. You do it to get each other to a neutral starting point, then the fight is on. Once you merge/tap gloves, you have no idea what will happen....no two fights are the same.

[TAW_Blaze]

meh, taste differs i guess.

 

No, you just obviously have no clue what a good knife fight feels like. I'm very much a BVR guy and I can tell you dogfighting with a good guy is one of the most fun things you can do.

[*Rage*]

+1

 

And if you really wanna go all out then guns only is the air combat equivalent of a high protein diet :-) Mano a Mano.

[Stuge]

It is :) everyone makes mistakes' date=' and they make mistakes on top of their mistakes. But in theory if you screw up the merge, you have a low chance to win.[/quote']

 

Yes, and in practice too, the winner can be decided by the maneuvers done right before the merge.

 

Set the bandit up for disadvantage at the merge...

 

One of my favorites is to force yourself to be below the bandit at merge point and then go vertical - after this the bandit has only bad options:

 

1) Split S, which is impossible to pull off perfectly if not prepared to do it, since you need a lower airspeed at start. Also the presence of terrain may prevent this option.

 

2) A turn into some other direction, which instantly gives the lower-flying opponent extra room to maneuver.

[Buckeye]

I think 2 v 2 dogfighting would probably be my optimal heart pounding experience, but 1 v 1 is good for practice and lots of fun. It's nice to have it be just you as your choices vs him and his choices to see who wins.

[GGTharos]

Yes, and in practice too, the winner can be decided by the maneuvers done right before the merge.

 

Set the bandit up for disadvantage at the merge...

 

That's right. If you're playing fair, your tactics suck.

 

One of my favorites is to force yourself to be below the bandit at merge point and then go vertical - after this the bandit has only bad options:

This is called taking exclusive turning room - the word exclusive is the key. It is only available to one of the belligerents - it's a double whammie because not only you have the turning room, you are the only one able to execute a lead turn in the purely vertical plane. However, your conclusion that the other guy only has bad options is not quite right:

 

1) Split S, which is impossible to pull off perfectly if not prepared to do it, since you need a lower airspeed at start. Also the presence of terrain may prevent this option.

If the available turning room is less than that of a split-S, he can't do it at all. That isn't to say a split-s is ideal, either. But in this case ...

 

2) A turn into some other direction, which instantly gives the lower-flying opponent extra room to maneuver.

This is not exactly true, and it comes back to merge set-up. The high opponent isn't in the best place he could be necessarily, but he can negate exclusive turning room by taking an offset and performing a slice-back. It isn't easy because the low guy can take the turning room away by forcing a perfect head-on, but it's not the end of the world either.

 

So options for the high guy in this situation are:

 

- Take away the exclusive turning room (fly lower)

- Create turning room for yourself (fly higher)

- force the other guy to come to you and waste energy (fly much higher)

- Take an offset to create turning room for self (not easy to accomplish, but doable)

- Manage airspeed and pitch in such a way as to suck the bandit into a rolling scissors (not easy to do, must understand rate bands. No, don't ask me)

- 'Winder/Slammer/Sparrow in the face ( because we don't have time for lawnmowers :P )

- Wingman (you just got dragged and bagged)

[Stuge]

That's right. If you're playing fair, your tactics suck.

 

If the rules are agreed on, the fight is fair.

 

I have yet to come across a 1 versus 1 request with specific merge parameters. Maybe you wanna do it some time? :D

 

So options for the high guy in this situation are:

 

- Take away the exclusive turning room (fly lower)

 

Not after merge point, which I was referring to.

 

- Create turning room for yourself (fly higher)

 

Not after merge point.

 

- force the other guy to come to you and waste energy (fly much higher)

 

Not doable after merge point - going up without turning as tight as possible can likely result in a very quick death.

 

- Take an offset to create turning room for self (not easy to accomplish, but doable)

 

This is interesting, I'm not sure if I understand. Can you elaborate? Is this doable after merge point?

 

- Manage airspeed and pitch in such a way as to suck the bandit into a rolling scissors (not easy to do, must understand rate bands. No, don't ask me)

 

Interesting, but ok I won't ask :)

 

- 'Winder/Slammer/Sparrow in the face ( because we don't have time for lawnmowers :P )

 

And this is a fair fight then? :D

 

Wingman (you just got dragged and bagged)

 

I was mainly referring to a 1 on 1, guns only scenario. Besides, Pete Bonanni says in "Art of the Kill" (I just read it, superb read!!), that if you are in a 1 versus 2 scenario, you should fight as you would your best 1 versus 1! :P

[GGTharos]

I thought that half the stuff (At least) that I mentioned up there is a merge setup. So yes, 'not after the merge'. Before it.

 

This includes taking an offset. Turning room can be vertical, horizontal, or both. When referring to offests it usually means horizontal. If you have vertical turning room, you don't need as big an offset. If you take an offset against a guy who's using exclusive turning room, you've basically taken away a bunch of that exclusivity, and you may even be in a better energy position.

 

As for a 1v1 guns duel, that's great and all, but it's also BS*

 

Pete Bonanni is just scratching the surface, but his stuff is good. As for 1v2, that depends on what the 2 are doing, and what I can do to them. If they don't formate in a way I can exploit, I'll leave. 1v2 is pretty advanced stuff, most of the time I don't survive such a thing, nor should I be expecting to, or, in other words, if you win a 1v2, it's not because you're that good, it's because the 2 are that bad - at BFM, at mutual support, etc :)

 

 

 

*Because I don't care about 1v1 gun duels. They're made up constructs where you have no consideration for fuel or survival, or your wingmen.

[Stuge]

Thx for the explanation!

 

 

As for a 1v1 guns duel, that's great and all, but it's also BS*

 

*Because I don't care about 1v1 gun duels. They're made up constructs where you have no consideration for fuel or survival, or your wingmen.

 

Only that I think gun dueling is the exact thing you need to do if you want to become a death machine in ANY situation involving a merge, missiles or no. It's a fun means to a very powerful end. Gun duel is the single best practice mode for BFM.

[GGTharos]

I will agree in this way:

 

Sure, if you like playing alone, that's ok. It gives you experience and sometimes teaches you new tricks.

 

The moment you run into a capable 2-ship that actually has mutual support, (as opposed to those that merely who believe they have mutual support - common occurrence), you're fried. And they don't need to be your level of death machine.

 

You might ask about theoretical 2-ship of such death machines, and I'll say that they usually fall into the above-mentioned false belief category. And no, no books or internets will teach you mutual support.

 

So, that's my perspective.

 

Only that I think gun dueling is the exact thing you need to do if you want to become a death machine in ANY situation involving a merge, missiles or no. It's a fun means to a very powerful end. Gun duel is the single best practice mode for BFM.

[USARStarkey]

I will agree in this way:

 

Sure, if you like playing alone, that's ok. It gives you experience and sometimes teaches you new tricks.

 

The moment you run into a capable 2-ship that actually has mutual support, (as opposed to those that merely who believe they have mutual support - common occurrence), you're fried. And they don't need to be your level of death machine.

 

You might ask about theoretical 2-ship of such death machines, and I'll say that they usually fall into the above-mentioned false belief category. And no, no books or internets will teach you mutual support.

 

So, that's my perspective.

 

I dont see how there can be in argument on this at all. 2 is always better than one, with anything remotely implying parity in skill. If they arent working together, get separated, etc....it isn't 2 v 1 anymore, and were back to square one. There is not a such thing as a fair fight. If two things are exactly equal, you get a draw. In any situation where all things are the same, but one side has more, side with more wins.