DCS WW2 fighter comparison

[NineLine]

Guys... I removed more posts, if you guys cant discuss this stuff without calling each other names I am going to have to start handing out warning points. Please try and discuss this stuff without the added crap... if you cant control yourself, then dont post.

Edited July 3, 2014 by NineLine

[Random]

It seems kinda pointless to argue right now over aircraft performance before anyone has had the chance to actually try ED's work... They might actually get it right you know!

 

If it ends up with a spit featuring an "i win" button and 109 that flies like a frozen chicken then its time to get worked up.

[msalama]

They might actually get it right you know!

 

+1

 

But still we get the same auld manure-slinging garbagefest each and every time there's a WW2 sim on the grognard radar... *BARF*

 

Anyway, trusting the mods and their vigilance as concerns handling - and disinfecting - this particular cesspit. :thumbup:

[Friedrich-4B]

:megalol:

 

Do you have any evidence of

 

(i) C-3 not being available to the 109 units concerned or that

(ii) the 109 units concerned refused to carry out their operational orders to increase manifold pressure to 1.98ata?

 

(i) In all of the years that Kurfurst has claimed that 1.98 ata was used after 20 March 1945, has he found any other supporting evidence that, in the chaotic conditions prevailing for the Luftwaffe, both C3 and MW 50 or MW 30 was available at the airfields on which the four Gruppen were based?

 

(ii) The OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g. Kdos were not operational orders - they were OKL plans for how the Jagdwaffe would be equipped and organised in future. A transcript of a similar document, dated 4 February 1945, from Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz shows that various units were to reequip with the Bf 109K-6 (Sturm); no doubt the units concerned tried very hard to carry out these "operational orders":

 

Edited July 4, 2014 by Friedrich-4/B

[USARStarkey]

(i) In all of the years that Kurfurst has claimed that 1.98 ata was used after 20 March 1945, has he found any other supporting evidence that, in the chaotic conditions prevailing for the Luftwaffe, both C3 and MW 50 or MW 30 was available at the airfields on which the four Gruppen were based?

 

(ii) The OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g. Kdos were not operational orders - they were OKL plans for how the Jagdwaffe would be equipped in future. A transcript of a similar document from Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz dated 4 February 1945 shows that various units were to reequip with the Bf 109K-6 (sturm); no doubt the units concerned tried very hard to carry out these operational orders:

 

 

Yeah this is what I was saying too. They arent operational orders, they are plans for the future.

[Isegrim]

And at the end the K-6 was planned as Heavy fighter/Anti Bomber variant.

Equippend with mk-108 in wings and added armour at was less agile than the K-4 .

[Isegrim]

Ahm.... ive talked some years ago quiet a while to what i would say *a very old man*in the German Military and War Museum here in Dresden about past things and the War.

 

And i remembered reading this thread that he argued about Something like high Boost pressures on German warplanes and his point of view was that this has to be a mistake made by a typo cause most of the engines could not really Handle this or only very short times.

 

So maybe its meant 1.89 ATA instead of 1.98 ?!?!?! and a misunderstanding of the time caused by war chaos?!?!

 

I have not really an idea and i didnt think about that at this time.

I have talked to this guys 10 minutes or so and this had been around 2002..

 

I have no idea who he has been or the points are correct he did say to me.

 

But its something to think about.

 

EDIT: If you now try to argue why this havent been corrected.....I have no idea!!!!!! But its been war and chaos and etc....so maybe its just been forgotten.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Isegrim

[MiloMorai]

while JG 301 to Ta 152

III./JG301 started to be equipped with Ta152Hs but this could not be accomplished and the a/c went to Stab JG301.

 

in total 160 109s on 1,98ata.

Supposedly, as NO documentation that they did has been posted.

[Kurfürst]

Quite true, Milosh and very observant.

 

We only know that 1,98 ata successfully employed and tested by an operational unit without particular problems and that Rechlins trials were successful and that the boost has been cleared and ordered for four Gruppen of JG 27 and 53 apart from JG 11 already using it and that the aircraft of JG 27 and 53 had access to C-3 fuel in Bavaria even at the end of the war and that their planes carried fuel triangles that indicated the use of C-3 fuel.

 

What remains in question wheter the groundcrews of JG 27 and JG 53 ever managed to set the boost regulator valve to from 1,8 ata to 1,98a and the injection pump's limiter screw from 15 mm to 13.8 mm, which was how a D series engine was set to "C" type.

 

I wonder if, during the last chaotic days of the Nazi Reich, if there was even a single screwdriver in Bavarian airfields. Certainly no document and even more importantly, IMAGE of DOCUMENT has been posted so far that would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there were screwdrivers around! :megalol:

[otto]

Quite true, Milosh and very observant.

 

We only know that 1,98 ata successfully employed and tested by an operational unit without particular problems and that Rechlins trials were successful and that the boost has been cleared and ordered for four Gruppen of JG 27 and 53 apart from JG 11 already using it and that the aircraft of JG 27 and 53 had access to C-3 fuel in Bavaria even at the end of the war and that their planes carried fuel triangles that indicated the use of C-3 fuel.

 

What remains in question wheter the groundcrews of JG 27 and JG 53 ever managed to set the boost regulator valve to from 1,8 ata to 1,98a and the injection pump's limiter screw from 15 mm to 13.8 mm, which was how a D series engine was set to "C" type.

 

I wonder if, during the last chaotic days of the Nazi Reich, if there was even a single screwdriver in Bavarian airfields. Certainly no document and even more importantly, IMAGE of DOCUMENT has been posted so far that would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there were screwdrivers around! :megalol:

 

Even if there is a picture with screwdrivers from 1945 you still have to prove it actually turned :) .

[NineLine]

And at the end the K-6 was planned as Heavy fighter/Anti Bomber variant.

Equippend with mk-108 in wings and added armour at was less agile than the K-4 .

 

Well near the end, thats pretty much all they were doing, trying to stop the onslaught of bombers...

[NineLine]

You know, its tough to really gauge truly what was going on, specially later in the war. Certainly things werent getting documented the way they might have been carefully done in the early years of WWII, Its quite easy to see undocumented changes and such if you look hard enough. The D-9 development has been a good example of that...

 

Quite true, Milosh and very observant.

 

We only know that 1,98 ata successfully employed and tested by an operational unit without particular problems and that Rechlins trials were successful and that the boost has been cleared and ordered for four Gruppen of JG 27 and 53 apart from JG 11 already using it and that the aircraft of JG 27 and 53 had access to C-3 fuel in Bavaria even at the end of the war and that their planes carried fuel triangles that indicated the use of C-3 fuel.

 

What remains in question wheter the groundcrews of JG 27 and JG 53 ever managed to set the boost regulator valve to from 1,8 ata to 1,98a and the injection pump's limiter screw from 15 mm to 13.8 mm, which was how a D series engine was set to "C" type.

 

I wonder if, during the last chaotic days of the Nazi Reich, if there was even a single screwdriver in Bavarian airfields. Certainly no document and even more importantly, IMAGE of DOCUMENT has been posted so far that would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there were screwdrivers around! :megalol:

[MiloMorai]

With that argument Kurfurst, then you have no problem with 150PN fuel/25lb/21lb boost used by 30 squadrons of Spitfires of the 2TAF.

 

You also ignore that there was Fw190s(BMW) and Ju188s(BMW) in Lw.Kdo. West that absolutely required C3 fuel. There was also Ju88s but it is not know how many were G-1s(BMW) or G-6s(Jumo).

 

That 284,000 l. of C3 you claim (no documentation posted) was in Bavaria had to be divided up among many bases (~12) and much of that would be lost for use by the supposed 1.98ata units due to the frequent base transfers by the supposed 1.98ata Bf109 units. With BMW powered a/c having priority for C3 fuel that doesn't leave much for the 66 operational supposed 1.98ata 109s.

 

With 350,000 l. of B4 available, those supposed 1.98ata 109s would be using B4 as that would be the fuel easily available for them to use rather sitting on the ground.

 

Maybe by the time those supposed 1.98ata 109s (I./JG27 3.5.45 - 8.5.45, III./JG27 2.5.45 - 5.45) got to Salzburg they did use 1.98ata as some Fw190(BMW) were also based there. But then Salzburg is in Austria, not Bavaria.

[JtD]

Quite true, Milosh and very observant.

 

We only know ... that Rechlins trials were successful ...

 

Maybe you know, I don't. Can you please point me to the source(s)?

[Kurfürst]

"In Rechlin begann am 19.2.45. die 2000 PS-Erprobung des DB 605 mit der Ju 52. Die Tests vom 19.2.45. bis 3.3.45. mit einer Flugzeit von 2 h 46 min, davon 1 h 40 min mit 2000 PS Motorlauf, verliefen einwandfrei. Nur eine Kerze wurde gewechselt."

Edited July 4, 2014 by Kurfürst
duration of trials

[Kurfürst]

Even if there is a picture with screwdrivers from 1945 you still have to prove it actually turned :) .

 

Supposed screwdrivers! :lol:

[Barrett_g]

What fuel did the Me-262 use?

[Isegrim]

What fuel did the Me-262 use?

 

The of Prototype of the Jumo 004 Jetengines did run on Diesel, the later engines on J2 Synthetic fuel.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Isegrim

[USARStarkey]

Supposed screwdrivers! :lol:

 

False analogy. It is reasonable to assume the germans had screwdrivers because they are a common tool, and would have been necessary for maintenance.

 

Simply not having documentation of something doesnt mean I just get to assume it existed because of a chaotic situation at the end of the war. By your logic, I am now assuming that the Germans were operating at 4.65ata, because you know, reasons.

[JtD]

"In Rechlin begann am 19.2.45. die 2000 PS-Erprobung des DB 605 mit der Ju 52. Die Tests vom 19.2.45. bis 3.3.45. mit einer Flugzeit von 2 h 46 min, davon 1 h 40 min mit 2000 PS Motorlauf, verliefen einwandfrei. Nur eine Kerze wurde gewechselt."

 

OK, and the source?

[Kurfürst]

Dietmar Hermann

[Isegrim]

I goggled him ....is this the Dentist or the Pastor Dietmar Hermann? ;)

 

Also thats ~ 7+ Minutes per day at 2000 HP.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Isegrim

[MiloMorai]

Isegrim, google books by Dietmar Hermann.

 

This is a person you can trust when he says something. There is no revisionist history by him.

[JtD]

Secondary source again. :( A snippet of it.

 

And I thought there was a well researched article based on 60 primary sources, most of them presented in the article, on the issue.

Edited July 5, 2014 by JtD

[MiloMorai]

On another board the request for C3 fuel availability on German airfields relieved this reply:

 

Kriegstagebuch Luftflottenkommando 6 for April 1945 has a few snippets concerning aviation fuel including reports on fuel available on various airfields on 22nd, 25th, 29th. and 30th April 1945. On this days and also on 2nd and 3rd of April 1945 there was no C3 reported at Prag-Gbelly.

Aibling had 2 m3 C3 on the 22nd and 6 on the 25th of April, Kreustrasse had 10 and 15 m3. On both days the amount for Holzkirchen was 6 m3 and nothing for Ainring. Ketterschwang was not listed at all and Salzburg was not under the control of LflKdo 6.

 

A report from 23. April 1945 list two railroad-trains anticipated, one with 300 m3 C3 aviation-gas. 60 m3 were to be distributed to Pilsen, 40 to Prag and 200 to operational airfields under the control of VIII. Fliegerkorps.

On 26. April 1945 Lufttanklager Krailing near Munich stored 710 tons C3, probably the last reserve available. Four days later it was ordered to disable the facility (“Lähmen”) and to transport all fuel on trucks or in barrels to Aigen, Innsbruck and Zeltweg. On 1. May 1945 is was made clear, that the transport of fuel had first priority, disabling the facility second.

When looking on those few reports, it seem quite clear, that C3 was mainly distributed to airfields occupied by Schlachtgeschwader. Quite understandable as the BMW 801 in FW-Schlachtflugzeuge could not operate on B4.

To list only some exampels, on 30. April 1945

Zauchtel had 17 m3,

Schweidnitz 20,

Prerau 10,

Wels 44,

Hörsching 37

Graz 17.

 

On the other hand, there were also airfields without active Schlachtflieger-units with relatively large amounts of C3. By way of example on 22. April 1945

Füstenfeldbruck had 24 m3,

Gablingen 34,

Lechfeld 33,

Neuburg 20,

Wörishofen 18,

Erding 19,

Neubiberg 30,

Schleißheim 21

Reichenbach 26.

 

1m3 = 1000 l.

 

I./JG27 (21.4.45 - 3.5.45) and III./JG27 (20.4.45 - 2.5.45) were at Bad Aibling having only enough C3 for 5 sorties on the 22 April and 15 sorties on the 25 April, if no drop tanks were fueled. As there was no C3 at Prag for III./JG27 (4.45 - 20.4.45), no boost increase.

 

Kreuzstrasse (III./JG53) (13.4.45 - 1.5.45) was a little better off with enough C3 fuel for 25 and 37 sorties on each of the days, if no drop tanks were fueled. Left Fürstenfeldbruck 13.4.45 so any fuel there was unavailable for use.

 

IV./JG53 - Ketterschwang (22.4.45 - 27.4.45) and then to Holzkirchen (27.4.45 - 30.4.45) with enough C3 fuel for 15 sorties on each day, if no drop tanks were fueled.

 

Not enough C3 fuel to have all the operational 1.98ata K-4s airborne.

 

Hardly worth changing the boost limit when B4 was readily available in larger quantities and thus having ALL operational a/c in the air.