Most frustrating MP session to date.

[ShuRugal]

Sure, anyone will look to minimize their exposure. Flying low doesn't accomplish it as well as other ways.

 

such as?

Why, because you have to get closer? :)

 

basically. I have yet to find myself in a situation where I'm close enough to use an R-27 before the other guy knows i'm there.

 

Yep. And it's not that hard to do if you know how to do point-of-reference math, speed-time math ... ie. pilot math. That's right, only need to paint you once and the rest is done in one's head or at most with a reference to the HSI.

 

got any resources I can study up on?

 

 

Can't really resolve this one without a track.

will supply one later, dont have time to wait on the upload atm.

 

BTW, like I mentioned, you do NOT have the disadvantages that your planes should have. With the DL, you have advantages that you should NOT have.

 

You still haven't answered my question as to what those are, exactly. I'm willing to change my expectations, if there's a reason I can understand for doing so.

 

As for 120's, they really don't have any serious advantages. You may have noticed people complaining that you need to get within 5nm for them to do anything useful.

 

I have noticed that. Somehow I still manage to get killed by them from much greater ranges.

 

 

You mean you fixed it for your ego. Plenty of people fly flankers at higher altitudes and they do just fine.

Well, yes, but it's still an accurate depiction of what happens why I try that approach.

 

If you're waiting until you get spiked to turn on your radar, you simply might not have time to search the airspace in time. The closer you get, the thinner the 'slice' of air that the radar scans, and the easier it is for the bandit to slip past undetected. Add to that frantic scanning (jumping elevations without allowing the radar to complete its scan), and things go poorly.

I've tried doing it the other way as well, and it seems like having that radar on tells the other guy where I am a whole lot more reliably than it tells me where he is.

There really isn't a better way. It's the same for everyone.

 

I wish I could help you, but without knowing exactly how you fly and what you do when things start happening, I can't really tell you. All I can advise is, stop playing the sneaky game and start with straight-up BVR. Use that time to understand how your radar works, set yourself up with some SP missions with cooperative targets as well ... and always review tacviews, especially after such a thing as you described.

 

Must be pretty short range mission then.

 

Yep, you're right. There's no manual for BVR, very little on BFM, etc. There are threads here describing the basics of BVR - I figure you've researched and read as much as you could.

 

The catch is, just like with Art of the Kill, and Shaw's book, as detailed as all that stuff might seem - it's just scratching the surface.

 

What you need is an instructor, but you're not necessarily likely to find one. The other option is to find a buddy to practice very specific scenarios, which means you both must be like-minded ... focused and disciplined.

 

You CAN do it all on your own too, just realize that it will take a long time and you need to essentially run a battle lab for yourself.

 

sounds like i need to keep digging, then. I would appreciate some direction on where to dig, though.

[GGTharos]

such as?

 

Not being where they're looking for you, using bait, etc. You don't always get the option of going in stealthily, so tactics are needed instead, but they don't always apply to non-team environments ... as a singleton, you need to draw some lines in the sand instead and not cross them (ie. how close are you going to get before you turn and turn? If you're too close already, what now?)

 

But getting this done well presumes you've worked out a visual look-out regime as well. I know you're trying, and no, it doesn't always work for people who are good at it either ... but learn to fly by using your eyes, not your RWR or compass. Need to turn 90 deg? Look in the direction, pick a land feature, point your nose at it. Really quick way to enter a notch for example. (Naturally, you will have to fine-tune).

 

basically. I have yet to find myself in a situation where I'm close enough to use an R-27 before the other guy knows i'm there.

 

Generally speaking, aside from the stuff I mentioned before, a missile launched from high altitude will out-range a missile shot from low altitude. Ie. if you are going at it with a guy who's flying high, you've set yourself up for problems. Now it doesn't always work out like that, because a lot of people have learned to game the game.

 

got any resources I can study up on?

 

Look up fix-to-fix navigation within the context of aviation (think about how it relates to bullseye and how you can use that), 60:1 rule, and I'm pretty sure you can do the speed-time math in your head :)

 

You still haven't answered my question as to what those are, exactly. I'm willing to change my expectations, if there's a reason I can understand for doing so.

 

- DL bug: Dead contacts stay on it. It's bad in a busy environment. I don't know if the bug is there.

- DL advantage you shouldn't have: You're receiving it through mountains, again IIRC.

- DL doesn't work as well as in RL, either: It should give you more info that you get right now on an individual contact and your wingmen

- Radar things that should be happening to you but aren't: Huge notch gates at longer ranges (up to or close to 200kt), very sensitive to ECM, severe self-jamming at low altitudes because of the antenna construction, radar display should be limited to 150km (in fact you don't really get to choose your range scale, AFAIK)

- IRST things that should be happening but aren't: Can't see through clouds, false contacts from certain types of heat sources, including possibly reflection of sun from the clouds, etc.

 

 

I have noticed that. Somehow I still manage to get killed by them from much greater ranges.

 

So, maybe you're not too familiar with how these work?

 

Well, yes, but it's still an accurate depiction of what happens why I try that approach.

 

Everyone had to start somewhere. Book learning is very important, but so instruction, and then practice and experience. We don't really get much in terms of instruction or even what you need to be looking for, so you're left to figure out a lot of stuff on your own. Your hint is the lines in the sand. :)

 

I've tried doing it the other way as well, and it seems like having that radar on tells the other guy where I am a whole lot more reliably than it tells me where he is.

 

For people who can use the RWR to range you, while they are operating ECM, sure, maybe. On the other hand, perhaps you don't completely understand how the radar works, or your scanning discipline is not good OR they are using tactics that you're not thinking of, such as dropping to the notch and waiting until they no longer have your nail (they're outside of your radar scan zone) before attacking you.

 

Do you know how much volume/airspace a single bar/sweep of your radar covers? How many bars does it normally scan? How much altitude do they cover at a given distance?

 

sounds like i need to keep digging, then. I would appreciate some direction on where to dig, though.

 

Try searching BVR, Missiles, etc. on this forum - I think you will find a lot of threads with respect to this subject.

[Exorcet]

I used to fly F 15 just as much as su 27 in version 1.2.3 . But since than the 120 c is just too effective and the r27 too weak and i get no satisfaction when getting a kill in the f15.

The R27 seems to me like it doesn't track at all unless you fire it well within visual range.

Just for the record, the 120 isn't really much more effective than the 27

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1992715&postcount=1138

 

It doesn't appear to deal with chaff that much better either. Plus, with missiles as they are (a bit short legged) the ET becomes a lot more useable, and the 73 is better than the 9M all over.

[ShuRugal]

But getting this done well presumes you've worked out a visual look-out regime as well. I know you're trying, and no, it doesn't always work for people who are good at it either ... but learn to fly by using your eyes, not your RWR or compass. Need to turn 90 deg? Look in the direction, pick a land feature, point your nose at it. Really quick way to enter a notch for example. (Naturally, you will have to fine-tune).

 

I already use visual references for navigating. Have to in a ground-attack environment, especially in the KA-50 (which is my forte in this sim)

 

 

Generally speaking, aside from the stuff I mentioned before, a missile launched from high altitude will out-range a missile shot from low altitude. Ie. if you are going at it with a guy who's flying high, you've set yourself up for problems. Now it doesn't always work out like that, because a lot of people have learned to game the game.

 

how? If this is something that 'a lot of people' are doing, then clearly i need to know the principal so i can practice it and be competitive.

 

 

Look up fix-to-fix navigation within the context of aviation (think about how it relates to bullseye and how you can use that), 60:1 rule, and I'm pretty sure you can do the speed-time math in your head :)

 

alright

 

 

 

- DL bug: Dead contacts stay on it. It's bad in a busy environment. I don't know if the bug is there.

- DL advantage you shouldn't have: You're receiving it through mountains, again IIRC.

- DL doesn't work as well as in RL, either: It should give you more info that you get right now on an individual contact and your wingmen

- Radar things that should be happening to you but aren't: Huge notch gates at longer ranges (up to or close to 200kt), very sensitive to ECM, severe self-jamming at low altitudes because of the antenna construction, radar display should be limited to 150km (in fact you don't really get to choose your range scale, AFAIK)

- IRST things that should be happening but aren't: Can't see through clouds, false contacts from certain types of heat sources, including possibly reflection of sun from the clouds, etc.

all good points.

 

 

 

 

So, maybe you're not too familiar with how these work?

clearly.

 

 

 

For people who can use the RWR to range you, while they are operating ECM, sure, maybe. On the other hand, perhaps you don't completely understand how the radar works, or your scanning discipline is not good OR they are using tactics that you're not thinking of, such as dropping to the notch and waiting until they no longer have your nail (they're outside of your radar scan zone) before attacking you.

 

Do you know how much volume/airspace a single bar/sweep of your radar covers? How many bars does it normally scan? How much altitude do they cover at a given distance?

 

the bold is my biggest problem, and it's because of the second bit. the answer to all that is "nope." Any resources would be useful.

 

Try searching BVR, Missiles, etc. on this forum - I think you will find a lot of threads with respect to this subject.

done that, mostly all i can find are threads full of people whining that their AIM-120 didn't kill everyone in the air at once and go on to burn down the Kremlin.

[Beagle One]

What I see as the true problem in DCS MP is the simple fact that 25 out of 45 servers you can find are passworded and the public ones are either Aerobatic servers or empty. The only combat mission based public MP server with some players on it left seems to be 104th.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Beagle One

[ShuRugal]

What I see as the true problem in DCS MP is the simple fact that 25 out of 45 servers you can find are passworded and the public ones are either Aerobatic servers or empty. The only combat mission based public MP server with some players on it left seems to be 104th.

 

This is part of it. I really -really- don't care for the way 104th sets up their missions. Ground attack objectives for both teams is well within friendly lines, and the CAP waypoints are set up to throw fighters into a 30k-foot jousting tourney without ever coming within 100km of the ground attackers. This seems to me like a ridiculous setup for several reasons: Why are there red troops so close to blue base, and blue troops so close to red base? Why are the fighters not given any waypoints to allow them to intercept enemy attack aircraft and defend valuable troops and armor? Isn't the whole point of a fighter to defend friendly assets? either by intercepting enemy ground attack flights, or screening friendly ground attack against enemy air cover?

 

Unfortunately, the 104th if the only open server which regularly has enough players on it to get some interesting back-and-forth action going (or any at all, for that matter). The other night i actually managed to talk a couple other reds into jumping into Migs with me and coming in on the sneak to harass enemy ground units, and we were so successful at it that by our third sortie, the entire game dynamic had shifted so that blufor fighters were actually providing close cover on their attack units, and we had a hell of a low-level furball going on.

 

 

but this crap last night was something completely else. I don't know if this guy was just insanely good, or me and the other handful of people who were in and out of red CAP just happened to all be absolutely terrible, or what, but it was a miserable damn experience.

[otto]

Just for the record, the 120 isn't really much more effective than the 27

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1992715&postcount=1138

 

It doesn't appear to deal with chaff that much better either. Plus, with missiles as they are (a bit short legged) the ET becomes a lot more useable, and the 73 is better than the 9M all over.

 

Tested today 120cs in 1.2.8 and i think you are right about 120 no so great efficiency , about ET and 73.

I might be speaking from my experience in previous dcs versions.

But the 9m and 120 still have the low visibility smoke trail advantage.And R27 seems a really weak aam to me .

Edited July 17, 2014 by otto

[ENO]

Also, i've been kind of put off by this before, but never as worked up about it as I am right now: Why do multiplayer servers never have ground radar support for the russian birds? Do you people not realize that the russian birds are designed around the idea of using ground radar and AWACS to provide real-time situational awareness to their pilots? That without that additional SA, we are sitting ducks for F-15 drivers, unless we can sucker them into the mountains?

 

Think it's time you go ahead and design your own missions- maybe even host your own server. That way they can meet all of your divine expectations.

[Stuge]

No, what I don't like is to run a head-on justing match against other fighters which, under best case scenario (If i take an F-15) have identical performance characteristics. Call me silly, but in BCT they taught us that only an idiot goes into a heads-up slugfest against an equally-capable opponent, and only a dead man goes into the same against his betters. As my drill sergeant liked to say, a fair fight's a loosing fight.

 

Without having time to read through everything here I have to comment on this one.

 

Even if the planes are identical, the capabilities of the pilots rarely are.

 

Get a little more practice, a little more knowledge, and you just may suddenly find the other guys to be receiving much more missiles in their faces than you are.

 

Many new guys have made rapid progress in this sense.

[Rhinox]

What I see as the true problem in DCS MP is the simple fact that 25 out of 45 servers you can find are passworded and the public ones are either Aerobatic servers or empty...

Yeah, that's what I found yesterday evening (~20:00 GMT):

- one aerobatic server (~15 players)

- plenty of passworded (various number of players)

- one public (12of12 slots taken, don't remember which one)

- plenty of empty servers

 

Where did all the DCS-community go? Seems to me this sim is dying out. It is high time to make it more attractive!

[TAW_Blaze]

Use advanced search, hit TITLES ONLY. Choosing the other option is generally a waste of time.

[Ktulu2]

Where are you supposed to find advanced shearch? I looked and didnt found anything

[TAW_Blaze]

Where are you supposed to find advanced shearch? I looked and didnt found anything

 

I wonder where.. maybe under the search section? :megalol:

[Ktulu2]

Sry for being blind, but can't find it :/. Where do I find that? Its not in the main options, not in MP options and not in MP menu...

[Buzzles]

Sry for being blind, but can't find it :/. Where do I find that? Its not in the main options, not in MP options and not in MP menu...

 

He meant search on the forums. Look just above the icons for the modules, but below the main banner.