Fuel Crisis in DCS WWII

[NineLine]

Or we can probably do something to the campaign instead of each individual plane modules. For instance, the war progresses based on some victory points mechanism which in turn depends on the player(s) acutal performance in game. If Germans could achieve certain level of victory points (i.e. the war progression in their favor) then they can get higher quality fuel or less failure rate etc. Higher performance by better quality of fuel or less failure rate should be modeled in each module, but make it something not available immediately, but rather something you have to earn along the way. However, for this kinda thing to work, you probably need a Dynamic Campaign generator. However, to have dynamic campaign will be a big hurdle for ED or DCS.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Well we have the Resource Manager right now that is pretty powerful, you can limit amounts of supplies and timing or resupplies... so the ground work is there, its also why I want to see types of fuels and resources for these old birds get added to this.

[Pandacat]

That's good to know. After flying so many sims, I realize that what makes the game really fun is the dynamic aspect of it.

[MiloMorai]

I am not sure this is something you could really implement easily... I am not sure it was always lack of quality as much as other aspects, such as forced labour sabotage, lack of resources, etc... if they have good data on failures, that could be modelled. I will read your link later :)

 

Wouldn't sabotage or the substitution of an inferior material be a lack of quality in a finished product?

 

Nothing specific, but for the K-4 when it was introduced in Oct 1944 there was 188 in service out of 308 produced (61%). By the end of Dec 1944, there was 160 K-4s in service out of 854 produced (19%). Something must have caused this decrease of onhand K-4s besides operational combat losses due to being shot down.

[NineLine]

Wouldn't sabotage or the substitution of an inferior material be a lack of quality in a finished product?

 

Sure, but it doesnt say that the product itself isnt sound if everything went as planned. You cant say German designs werent sound, more so it was the execution of those designs that suffered from outside issues.

[Pandacat]

I read in Wiki that those k4's that use DB605DB engines can't use C3 and MW50 together. Only DC engines allow C3 and MW50 together. Not sure which engine DCS is modelling. Also, k4 is not a popular brand among pilots. Most expertens prefer G10 while novice pilots assigned to k4 can't really demonstrate its potentials.

[otto]

Some reading for you Sith,

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/document/page/149/83/0

 

Is the manufacturing quality, or the lack there of, for German a/c going to be modeled?

 

This is ridiculous.Performance graphs show performance of an average plane(with the lack of "manufacturing quality"). You don't think they chose a "special plane " that was an exception for tests ?

 

Why not simulate allied air superiority of 20 to 1 ?

Why not simulate the skill and experience of some of the luftwaffe aces?

I have incredible vision but not much resistance to G forces . Can we simulate that in game please.

[MiloMorai]

DB points out that the performance of the “cell” (fuselage/wings) is extremely bad, and even worser . It makes no sense to increase the power output of the engine when on the other side the plane quality is decreasing dramatically.

 

From the minutes from a 1.98ata meeting in early Jan. 1945.

[Isegrim]

The Fuselage proplems did came up since December 44 but Dora and K4 where already in service than.

 

Also the Proplems did get worse towards the end of the war.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Isegrim

[JtD]

Production quality would be a very interesting subject if modelled, but not good for any gaming purposes. Where's the fun in having a wing fall off for no reason?

[Narushima]

I read in Wiki that those k4's that use DB605DB engines can't use C3 and MW50 together. Only DC engines allow C3 and MW50 together. Not sure which engine DCS is modelling.

 

They were the same engine.

 

The C in 605DC meant that it was a 605D configured to run on C3 fuel.

 

So no, a 605DB could not run on C3 fuel, because if it did it would be named 605DC.

[SlipBall]

The Dora fuel seems just as complex:

 

The fuel thing in 44 was a big problem I understand

The 801C was replaced with the BMW 801 D-2 series engines in early 1942, which ran on C2/C3 100 octane fuel instead of the A/B/C/L's B4 87 octane, boosting takeoff power to 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW). The BMW 801G-2 and H-2 models were D-2 engines modified for use in bomber roles with lower gear ratios for driving larger propellers, clockwise and counterclockwise respectively. Just like the 801B engine the 801H-2 engine did not leave the prototype stage.

The D-2 models were tested with a system for injecting a 50-50 water-methanol mixture known as MW50 into the supercharger output to cool the charge, and thereby reduce backpressure. Some performance was gained, but at the cost of engine service life. Other boost systems using fuel for charge cooling, known as C3-injection, were developed and used until 1944. The serious fuel shortage in 1944 forced re-evaluating the MW50 system which was then installed instead of the C3-injection. With MW50 boosting takeoff power increased to 2,000 PS (1,470 kW), the C3-injection was initially only permitted for low altitude use and raised take-off power to 1870 PS. Later C3-injection systems were permitted for low-to-medium altitude use and raised take-off power to more than 1900 PS.

With the engine being used in higher-altitude fighter roles, a number of attempts were made to address the limited performance of the original supercharger. The BMW 801E was a modification of the D-2 using different gear ratios that tuned the supercharger for higher altitudes. Although takeoff power was unaffected, cruise power increased over 100 hp (75 kW) and "high power" modes for climb and combat were likewise improved by up to 150 hp (110 kW). The E model was also used as the basis for the BMW 801R, which included a much more complex and powerful two-stage four-speed supercharger, as well as die cast hydronalium cyl. heads, strengthened crankshaft and pistons, and chromed cylinders and exhaust valves; it was anticipated this version would produce over 2,000 hp (1,500 kW; 2,000 PS) (or over 2,600 hp (1,900 kW; 2,600 PS) with methanol-water injection).

 

In spite of these improvements, the E model was not widely used. Instead, continued improvements to the basic E model led to the BMW 801F, which dramatically improved performance across the board, with takeoff power increasing to 2,400 hp (1,790 kW). It was planned to use the F on all late-model Fw 190's, but the war ended before production started

[Narushima]

The Dora fuel seems just as complex:

 

The fuel thing in 44 was a big problem I understand

The 801C was replaced with the BMW 801 D-2 series engines in early 1942, which ran on C2/C3 100 octane fuel instead of the A/B/C/L's B4 87 octane, boosting takeoff power to 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW). The BMW 801G-2 and H-2 models were D-2 engines modified for use in bomber roles with lower gear ratios for driving larger propellers, clockwise and counterclockwise respectively. Just like the 801B engine the 801H-2 engine did not leave the prototype stage.

The D-2 models were tested with a system for injecting a 50-50 water-methanol mixture known as MW50 into the supercharger output to cool the charge, and thereby reduce backpressure. Some performance was gained, but at the cost of engine service life. Other boost systems using fuel for charge cooling, known as C3-injection, were developed and used until 1944. The serious fuel shortage in 1944 forced re-evaluating the MW50 system which was then installed instead of the C3-injection. With MW50 boosting takeoff power increased to 2,000 PS (1,470 kW), the C3-injection was initially only permitted for low altitude use and raised take-off power to 1870 PS. Later C3-injection systems were permitted for low-to-medium altitude use and raised take-off power to more than 1900 PS.

With the engine being used in higher-altitude fighter roles, a number of attempts were made to address the limited performance of the original supercharger. The BMW 801E was a modification of the D-2 using different gear ratios that tuned the supercharger for higher altitudes. Although takeoff power was unaffected, cruise power increased over 100 hp (75 kW) and "high power" modes for climb and combat were likewise improved by up to 150 hp (110 kW). The E model was also used as the basis for the BMW 801R, which included a much more complex and powerful two-stage four-speed supercharger, as well as die cast hydronalium cyl. heads, strengthened crankshaft and pistons, and chromed cylinders and exhaust valves; it was anticipated this version would produce over 2,000 hp (1,500 kW; 2,000 PS) (or over 2,600 hp (1,900 kW; 2,600 PS) with methanol-water injection).

 

In spite of these improvements, the E model was not widely used. Instead, continued improvements to the basic E model led to the BMW 801F, which dramatically improved performance across the board, with takeoff power increasing to 2,400 hp (1,790 kW). It was planned to use the F on all late-model Fw 190's, but the war ended before production started

 

First of all, the D-9 used the Jumo 213A engine, not the BMW 801. The Jumo ran on B4 fuel, with a small sample of engines configured to run on C3.

 

Second of all, the text you've posted has some inaccuracies. MW-50 was never used on BMW 801D engines outside of operational trials. In 1944 an order was given to increase to manifold pressure to 1.58/1.65 ata, without the use of C3 fuel injection or MW-50 injection, which can be seen in the FW 190 A-8 manual. MW-50 was used on the BMW 801TS (used by the FW 190 A-9) engines.

 

EDIT:

Also, the BMW 801F was just a test bed engine, and it was never intended to enter full production status. Many inovations from the F series were used on operational engines, like the D-2 but mostly on the S(TS) series.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Narushima

[SlipBall]

No, I was just showing the fuel problem that there was in 44, not the engine type in the 9

[Isegrim]

No, I was just showing the fuel problem that there was in 44, not the engine type in the 9

 

Yes for sure and thats pretty OK

 

Narushima just wanted to say that

the FW-190 D equiped with Jumo 213 Reversed V12 was called *DORA*

and

the FW-190 A or F equiped with BMW 801 variants where called *WÜRGER*

[Narushima]

Yes for sure and thats pretty OK

 

Narushima just wanted to say that

the FW-190 D equiped with Jumo 213 Reversed V12 was called *DORA*

and

the FW-190 A or F equiped with BMW 801 variants where called *WÜRGER*

 

Actually, all FW 190 were named Würger. It means "Shrike" in German, and it was the nickname given to the FW 190. Some time after the name was given to them, the allies mistranslated the word into "Butcher bird". It was a honest mistake, because some Shrikes are called butcher birds in English speaking countries, due to their eating habits.

 

The reason the D-9 was called the Dora was because of the German military phonetic alphabet. So the name Dora came from the D in D-9. The A models were called Antons.

Same thing with the 109. F models were called Friedrich, G Gustav, K Kurfurst, etc...

 

See here for entire German alphabet:

 

EDIT: Note that some letters could have multiple names. Like the F (Frik, Friedrich) or K (Konrad, Kurfurst).

 

 

No, I was just showing the fuel problem that there was in 44, not the engine type in the 9

 

You actually said "The Dora fuel seems just as complex:"

So I assumed you meant that the Dora used the 801. I guess I misunderstood you?

Edited July 27, 2014 by Narushima

[JtD]

I don't think the A-9 used MW50. It's the same plane as the A-8, just with a different engine. No change in the fuel system or any additional equipment.

[MiloMorai]

The family name, and that of the largest genus, Lanius, is derived from the Latin word for "butcher". So there was no mistranslation by the Allies.

[Narushima]

I don't think the A-9 used MW50. It's the same plane as the A-8, just with a different engine. No change in the fuel system or any additional equipment.

 

All FW 190A models from the A-4 onwards had the rear auxilary tank required for MW-50. In fact, some A-4 and A-5 with MW-50 models were used during the channel battles for combat trials.

 

That said MW-50 was never used operationally prior to A-9 because it was not needed (C3 allowed high boost ratings).

 

The A-9 on the other hand saw a high increase in manifold pressure, from 1.58 ata (1st gear)/ 1.65 ata (2nd gear) to 1.82 ata (both gears), which increased speed performance by 20-30 km/h.

 

See chart:

http://www.degnans.com/markd/Fw190A9_Boost.jpg

 

Ignore the table on the top, because for some reason the 1.82 ata is not listed, but it's there on the graph.

 

EDIT: Correction, not sure if the A-6 and A-7 had the rear fuselage tank. The A-8 most definitively had it though.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Narushima

[Isegrim]

Actually, all FW 190 were named Würger. It means "Shrike" in German, and it was the nickname given to the FW 190. Some time after the name was given to them, the allies mistranslated the word into "Butcher bird". It was a honest mistake, because some Shrikes are called butcher birds in English speaking countries, due to their eating habits.

 

The reason the D-9 was called the Dora was because of the German military phonetic alphabet. So the name Dora came from the D in D-9. The A models were called Antons.

Same thing with the 109. F models were called Friedrich, G Gustav, K Kurfurst, etc...

 

See here for entire German alphabet:

 

EDIT: Note that some letters could have multiple names. Like the F (Frik, Friedrich) or K (Konrad, Kurfurst).

 

 

 

 

You actually said "The Dora fuel seems just as complex:"

So I assumed you meant that the Dora used the 801. I guess I misunderstood you?

 

Like i have written before only A-F Variants where named *Würger*

 

The letters alphabet where mostly used for the BF-109 cause the 109 didnt have a dedicated name and the alphabet is just once used for FW-190 D *Dora*.

All FW-190 versions without the radial BMW engine where NOT named *Würger*

 

ISE

[Narushima]

Who told you that? All of the models were named Wurger. Same way the P-51 was named the Mustang. Or do you think only the Allison engined P-51 were nicknamed the Mustang?

 

There was no special name for radial engined 190s. Each version had it's name designated from the phonetic alphabet.

 

Just search "fw 190 D-9 wurger" in google and see how many hits you get.

[MiloMorai]

All FW 190A models from the A-4 onwards had the rear auxilary tank required for MW-50. In fact, some A-4 and A-5 with MW-50 models were used during the channel battles for combat trials.

 

Strange as I can't find the tank in the A-5 manual. The British don't mention this tank in their captured examples.

[Narushima]

Strange as I can't find the tank in the A-5 manual. The British don't mention this tank in their captured examples.

 

Assess the general handling characteristics as well as stability and controllability about the lateral axis at a center of gravity of .77 m with 500 kg bomb and 160 kg ballast in the FT area in place of an auxiliary tank. (115 Ltr fuel or special fuel).

In turning flight elevator force reversal occurs, the aircraft stalls on its own if no action is taken. Only after consumption of 200 l from the rear fuel tank, the aircraft shows neutral behavior (with auxiliary tank still full).

In summary it can be said that the examined rearward center of gravity, except while flying blind, may still be permitted if 1. Immediate consumption of the auxiliary fuel from the installed auxiliary tank is provided, if 2. in case 1) is not possible (GM 1 or methanol in the auxiliary tank), care is taken that the conditions for an undisturbed approach with 200 l of fuel consumed from the rear tank are given.

Fw 190 A-5

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a5-1286-nr2.html

 

Granted, it's true that not all A-4 and A-5 models had the auxiliary tank, but there's definitive evidence that at least some of them did carry it as standard equipment.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Narushima

[JtD]

No, it wasn't standard equipment. The rear tank came with the A-8 as standard equipment. And it was used for C3 fuel, not MW50, on all except for a few trial models, including the A-9. I'm not aware that the increased boost of 1.82 ata required MW-50.

[MiloMorai]

Factory testing of a configuration does not mean it was in service use.

 

Can you provide the page(s) from the manual showing the tank installed?

[Narushima]

After searching a bit I've found that you've already had this discussion 3 years a go on a different forum, and nothing I say will ever even remotely change your opinion.

 

No point in arguing.