Force feedback in high altitude

[kubanloewe]

I noticed in near all flightgames an increase of FFB when flying on higher altitudes and after a point stalling appears.

 

So that belongs to P51 too and perhaps all others, and if i´m totally wrong pls explain to me why.

 

For my understanding in high altitudes the air is thinner and if a plane flies with the same speed as on groundlevel the force of the rudderinput has to decrease. If you climb higher and higher or loose power and speed than your rudder has to become sluggish, effectiveless and therefore no FFB should be there....like in a stall when the plane becomes more and more the tendency to fall out of the sky. Am i wrong with that and why?

 

In DCS and most other Games/Sims the FFB increase and increase even before stalling (i mena not high speed stall). This behaviour reminds me very much to IL2 when we called some planes in that altitudes flying bricks. Stick becomes heavy like hell and evry input gives a shutter for stall. I know mostly you fly faster in higher altitudes which is normal due to thin air and less drag, but the developers bring the increasing rudder force which is right in low level up to the higher altitude...which i think is in some degree very wrong.

 

I think it should be reverse, when the plane looses its lift than the rudder FFB has to be light and sluggish.

Or with other words: I like to feel to fly in thin air and i think real pilots do.

In DCS with higher altitudes you feel flying more and more in a mud.

 

Or is my old MS FFB2 stick the wrong thing.

Edited October 26, 2014 by kubanloewe

[HugePanic]

Wthout too much thinking...

 

The elevator moment should be about the same, independent of the height.

Due to the reduced density, you would need a larger deflection (AoA) on the elevator, creating a larger stick-force.

 

That could be a reason, but I also could miss many aspects.....

[gavagai]

It is not going to be so simple as the density of the air. Your indicated airspeed might be lower, but your true airspeed and mach number are higher. You'll also be flying with a higher AoA to maintain level flight. Many things are different up high.

 

But I dare not say I am confident about anything here. People study physical chemistry for years just to have an informed opinion on airflow.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I never owned an FF controller, but one possible explanation might already been suggested above...

 

If the higher course needed at higher altitudes due to the air being "thinner" ends up being translated to an increased force in the FF device, than that could well account for what the OP describes...

[kubanloewe]

Wthout too much thinking...

 

The elevator moment should be about the same, independent of the height.

Due to the reduced density, you would need a larger deflection (AoA) on the elevator, creating a larger stick-force.

 

That could be a reason, but I also could miss many aspects.....

 

agree with larger deflection in thin air but why heavier stickforce ? I sit in a biplane and rudders force dont increase much the whole way when on the ground. So why they should in thin air ? more deflection for same reaction as in thick air is quite right but force ?

[kubanloewe]

It is not going to be so simple as the density of the air. Your indicated airspeed might be lower, but your true airspeed and mach number are higher. You'll also be flying with a higher AoA to maintain level flight. Many things are different up high.

 

But I dare not say I am confident about anything here. People study physical chemistry for years just to have an informed opinion on airflow.

 

lol, i know that we fly at high altitudes faster and i wrote it above but we fly faster because we are in thin air with lower drag. I agree when flying in highspeed rudder force has to increase a bit but in DCS and many other sims&games it increases always when flying higher even at near the same speed simulating you near a stall so force have to be high? on groundlevel it´s ok but in thin air it´s very much different i think. Perhaps it´s near the effect the P51 has with full middle tank..it become reverse feeling of Force Feedback and sluggish.

 

perhaps it´s the easiest and best way to ask a real P51 pilot if he can tell something about stick forces in higher altitude flying .

Edited October 27, 2014 by kubanloewe

[Yo-Yo]

lol, i know that we fly at high altitudes faster and i wrote it above but we fly faster because we are in thin air with lower drag. I agree when flying in highspeed rudder force has to increase a bit but in DCS and many other sims&games it increases always when flying higher even at near the same speed simulating you near a stall so force have to be high? on groundlevel it´s ok but in thin air it´s very much different i think. Perhaps it´s near the effect the P51 has with full middle tank..it become reverse feeling of Force Feedback and sluggish.

 

perhaps it´s the easiest and best way to ask a real P51 pilot if he can tell something about stick forces in higher altitude flying .

 

If you have the same IAS at different altitude the hinge moment is the same - so the same is the stick force.

THis is a rule of thumb but there is an exception: Mach number is significantly higher at high altitude so the plane can require more stick input for the certain G (nose tucking and rubber stick effects)/ Possibly you feel the increased stick travelling as an increased force.

High M sometimes can increase the hinge moment even at the same IAS because of specific pressure redistribution.