Smooth movement of aircraft controls

[Bucic]

[Random]

The only time I've seen controls jerking about other than due to low framerates (for me it gets noticeable below 40fps with rapud large stick deflections) is when suffering the G940 reversal bug. I took steps to correct it and no more jerkyness ever.

 

Other thing that just occurred to me. Some people record from tracks rather than live. I think that can lead to jerky looking controls.. I'll watch a couple of my tracks later to check.

[Bucic]

It's not related to FPS nor recording from tracks. Nothing to check. I've seen it for years during my own sessions.

[Random]

What controllers are/were you using then?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Random

[kripzoo]

Bucic.

Have you seen il2 CLOD 3d stick animation?

The animation of the stick movement is something like 3 fps :)

 

That's what i call "jerky" movement and in DCS world the stick movement is perfectly smooth, if not (like in those videos you posted) it's the joystick fault or very bad hardware.

 

The end.

[Bucic]

What controllers are/were you using then?

Logitech wingman, saitek av8r, saitek x-52 pro.

[Random]

Odd. None of those are particularly low resolution so there must be another reason then!

[Bucic]

Odd. None of those are particularly low resolution so there must be another reason then!

Each and every one of them is of low resolution of around 1024 steps per entire axis, plus potentiometer jitter.

 

 

Here's another one.

DCS: Messerschmitt Bf-109 K-4 Kurfürst by Юрий Долотказин

APzHSoE6QQw

 

And here I wonder, does the jitter transfer to the movement of the aircraft control surfaces? If it does, the issue at hand is no longer of aesthetics.

[sobek]

Each and every one of them is of low resolution of around 1024 steps per entire axis, plus potentiometer jitter.

 

Technically that is not jitter. Jitter is a periodic or randomly distributed deviation from an ideal sample rate. None of us are equipped to notice the jitter in our periphery sample rates. It's just not possible.

 

You are either talking about noise or quantisation error/low resolution.

 

Your video however does look very odd. I can't say that i have ever noticed such a bad angular resolution of any control surfaces, and that is certainly not due to me having a warthog, because DCS internally uses a much lower resolution than the warthog.

[Bucic]

Technically that is not jitter. Jitter is a periodic or randomly distributed deviation from an ideal sample rate. None of us are equipped to notice the jitter in our periphery sample rates. It's just not possible.

 

You are either talking about noise or quantisation error/low resolution.

 

Your video however does look very odd.

I meant the common meaning of the word, jerky, jumpy, and referred to the movement of the control stick.

Neither of the videos I've posted is mine. It has been years since I've posted a DCS video BTW.

 

I can't say that i have ever noticed such a bad angular resolution of any control surfaces

Please clarify. You mean that you haven't seen it in anyone's videos or that you haven't experienced it on your setup? By 'control surfaces', do you mean in-game axis behavior in general (no matter whether flight controls or actual control surfaces)? If you really meant control surfaces, why did you narrow it down to control surfaces?

 

As for signal processing and any other details on the subject, I really think it's pointless to go there until there's information that ED has acknowledged the problem.

 

Here's the last video example

I6WZTA-0r5w

[sobek]

If you really meant control surfaces, why did you narrow it down to control surfaces?

 

Because those are shown extensively to exert that behaviour in that video.

 

As for signal processing and any other details on the subject, I really think it's pointless to go there until there's information that ED has acknowledged the problem.

 

What problem? That some people use crappy hardware? Alright, acknowledged.

 

Btw. in that last video you posted, the stick moves perfectly smooth without jumping.

Edited January 24, 2015 by sobek

[Bucic]

1. Get yourself a TrackIR, and never fly without it, no one should be without it.

 

2. Have never seen that kind of odd input response before, I get totally smooth response and I use a 14yr old Saitek X36 (no joke)

 

Ten bucks says you've got some OS/device driver/bus priority issues going on...

Please read the thread first.

 

Because those are shown extensively to exert that behaviour in that video.

Could you cue me to the exact part of specific video you're referring to. I've watched both of them (the videos recently linked by me here) and I don't recall seeing actual control surfaces to be jumpy.

 

What problem? That some people use crappy hardware?

Couldn't disagree more. Vast majority of DCS players use controllers with potentiometers. I'd even dare to say that the issue doesn't exist only to those using Thrustmaster T.16000, Warthog or a DIY set of 12-bit controls.

plus

EDIT:

Case 2 variant 2: DCS allows impossible motion rates of pilot flight controls

 

Alright, acknowledged.

I meant an acknowledgement by someone from ED or the testers team.

 

Btw. in that last video you posted, the stick moves perfectly smooth without jumping.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Bucic

[Peter5on]

All these problems are becouse of a worn potentiometers which have voltage jumping or u can call it "noise". U can clean it with isopranol, this may help for some time.

 

I crush my saiteck evo becouse of that "jumpiness"

 

With hall sensors now i have everything perfectly smooth.

 

My Thrustmaster 16000 now have 6 years ;) the only wear is mechanical "ball joint"

 

Problem Solved.

[sobek]

I meant an acknowledgement by someone from ED or the testers team.

 

Well, whaddayaknow.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showgroups.php

 

 

I can't see anything related to your previous video in there. Yes, 2nd and 3rd derivative of stick position are rather high at certain points in time but they are continuous in the mathematical sense as far as it's observable. Are you saying now that DCS is supposed to model your arm and the sticks inertia that is missing due to using a short throw stick?

Edited January 25, 2015 by sobek

[PLP]

Also don't forget that AD converters often lose a bit or two to noisiness. So if you have a 10-bit ADC, chances are you only effectively have 200 points. Then you don't know if you are using the whole range -> even less points. Use a stick calibration tool (either in DCS or Windows control panel), and then if you notice that your stick is smooth in there but not in DCS you finally have a point to make. Until then it is pure speculation.

[Bucic]

Well, whaddayaknow.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showgroups.php

I didn't know. Your description is 'Moderator/Misanthropist'.

 

I can't see anything related to your previous video in there. Yes, 2nd and 3rd derivative of stick position are rather high at certain points in time but they are continuous in the mathematical sense as far as it's observable.

A man able to move a control stick like that could well work as a cement settling vibrator at a construction site.

 

Are you saying now that DCS is supposed to model your arm and the sticks inertia that is missing due to using a short throw stick?

If we aim to tackle the Case 2 Variant 2 from the OP, yes.

 

PS. As far as I remember, rudder pedals in DCS Black Shark 1 did not move 1:1 with game controller input. I've noticed it while yanking a potentiometer I held in my hand back and forth.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Bucic

[sobek]

PS. As far as I remember, rudder pedals in DCS Black Shark 1 did not move 1:1 with game controller input. I've noticed it while yanking a potentiometer I held in my hand back and forth.

 

Yes, because first order derivative of position is saturated. Higher orders are not.

[Bucic]

And we're back where we started.

[Sanguchito]

It's a shame that this thread hasn't come to a handy solution. Yep, sorry for bumping it. :(

[Bucic]

ED is pursuing realistic limitations to human capabilities regarding movement of aircraft flight controls so I'm thinking about creating a new entry strictly specific to the subject (nothing about how bad it looks like etc.). I just need an operative stick first.