MiG 21 vs modern fighters

[Hadwell]

that's freakin' awesome man, good job :D 4 kill sortie next?

[lucien]

that's freakin' awesome man, good job :D 4 kill sortie next?

 

lol thank you couldn't have done it without you. Still, it would have been a lot more difficult if the pilots actually pulled a few more g's

 

you reminded me of this cool video i found

 

don't think i'll be doing that in a mig 21 anytime soon.

[ff4life4]

 

tbh up to this point I'll take an R-3R over an R-73 anyday lol

 

 

 

To be honest I would kill to have an r-73 on the Mig. It has a really good seeker, all aspect, and I believe more range. As much as I love the r3r, if a pilot knows how flimsy the Mig 21 radar is, they can just dive straight to the deck and the radar will lose lock, hence r3r now has gone stupid. I also really like when I have the chance to acquire a target visually, is to turn radar off so they think I went away or are targeting someone else. But if the targrt is head on, or something with a low signature like the a10, I have no choice but to use r3r, and thus alerting them with lock tone.

 

I did some flying on the 104th yesterday. Flew over to where the enemy a10s were operating, and orbited slowly for 40 mins waiting for someone to start attacking our ground units. Found a a10, and took him down with 2 r3rs. I then went to turn around to head home cause I was low on gas, when I saw another a10 on radar. Locked him, but he was straight head on, my r60m wouldn't lock on, we passed both firing guns at each other and missed. Then I went to go distance myself and re attack sonce I know I can't turn with an a10 and I need to be behind him. But apparently he pulled so many g's he snapped his wing off by himself lol. Then i went home.

 

I know video would be better but I don't record as of yet.

[Hadwell]

...if a pilot knows how flimsy the Mig 21 radar is, they can just dive straight to the deck and the radar will lose lock...

 

 

that's why, in the mig-21, you stay on the deck, hide yourself with hills, so if someone tries to avoid your radar lock by diving, the ground is in the way... and even using r-3rs you need a visual on the target, cause he can just turn out of your lock even on the deck, you get the lock, then put the target on the + on the radar, then look at the top x on the gunsight, should be right there... you don't absolultly have to put him right directly on your nose, can get used to wherever he is, but simplest.

 

 

from my point of view, modern fighter pilots are mostly lazy and go for long-range attacks, or rely too much on the sensors and forget that just because someone's turned off their radar or hid behind a hill doesn't mean they've just disappeared entirely... and never expect someone to magically pop up 10km away in-front and underneath them... that surprise quite often gives more than enough time to smoke them with a couple r-3rs

 

all my posts in this whole thread, from my first post to here, are about ambush tactics... including everything i've said in this post. plus some other stuff....

 

 

the only way you'd be above someone or co-alt with them is if you weren't ambushing them.

 

if they've matched you(you meet on a peak for example), and their missiles have a longer range than you, and their prepared for you, then you die... if you don't escape...

 

 

definition for ambush: a surprise attack by lying in wait in a concealed position

Edited November 24, 2014 by Hadwell

[Hadwell]

I've Tried R-55's their IR missiles, make HUGE explosions, but have a short range.

 

it's the RS-2US that are also radar guided, and their not as fast, shorter range and don't turn as good as the R-3Rs, but i got my first missile kill in the mig-21 online with a couple of the RS-2US's... before i learned of the r-3r

[lucien]

To be honest I would kill to have an r-73 on the Mig. It has a really good seeker, all aspect, and I believe more range. As much as I love the r3r, if a pilot knows how flimsy the Mig 21 radar is, they can just dive straight to the deck and the radar will lose lock, hence r3r now has gone stupid. I also really like when I have the chance to acquire a target visually, is to turn radar off so they think I went away or are targeting someone else. But if the targrt is head on, or something with a low signature like the a10, I have no choice but to use r3r, and thus alerting them with lock tone.

 

I did some flying on the 104th yesterday. Flew over to where the enemy a10s were operating, and orbited slowly for 40 mins waiting for someone to start attacking our ground units. Found a a10, and took him down with 2 r3rs. I then went to turn around to head home cause I was low on gas, when I saw another a10 on radar. Locked him, but he was straight head on, my r60m wouldn't lock on, we passed both firing guns at each other and missed. Then I went to go distance myself and re attack sonce I know I can't turn with an a10 and I need to be behind him. But apparently he pulled so many g's he snapped his wing off by himself lol. Then i went home.

 

I know video would be better but I don't record as of yet.

 

Well theres a 20 year difference between the missiles. Of course the R-73 is a better missile(of the IR variety), I can concede that, but what I mean is I prefer the radar guided missiles over IR missiles in the 21. They're growing on me :P

 

Also, you have to keep in mind that the MiG 21 has an upward scanning radar that is already quite limited in the first place.

 

Those a-10c have a pretty nasty bite too lol if you give them the opportunity they'll take it. If Ralfidude was in that a-10c for example, i'll be damned if I go in for a frontal guns kill f that. From what I found, I could only lock the a-10 at <2km, and if you launch it after that you're pretty much setting yourself up to waste a missile. Plus, those r-60m go for flares pretty readily, so if your opponent sees the launch you're pretty much going to miss him in an a-10. I've had more success with fighters in AFB, but at the end of the day not as good as R-3r hands down.

 

If you want to put a replay I wouldn't mind watching it.

 

that's why, in the mig-21, you stay on the deck, hide yourself with hills, so if someone tries to avoid your radar lock by diving, the ground is in the way... and even using r-3rs you need a visual on the target, cause he can just turn out of your lock even on the deck, you get the lock, then put the target on the + on the radar, then look at the top x on the gunsight, should be right there... you don't absolultly have to put him right directly on your nose, can get used to wherever he is, but simplest.

 

 

from my point of view, modern fighter pilots are mostly lazy and go for long-range attacks, or rely too much on the sensors and forget that just because someone's turned off their radar or hid behind a hill doesn't mean they've just disappeared entirely... and never expect someone to magically pop up 10km away in-front and underneath them... that surprise quite often gives more than enough time to smoke them with a couple r-3rs

 

all my posts in this whole thread, from my first post to here, are about ambush tactics... including everything i've said in this post. plus some other stuff....

 

 

the only way you'd be above someone or co-alt with them is if you weren't ambushing them.

 

if they've matched you(you meet on a peak for example), and their missiles have a longer range than you, and their prepared for you, then you die... if you don't escape...

 

 

definition for ambush: a surprise attack by lying in wait in a concealed position

 

Hard to tell where the + on the radar really is with a hard maneuvering target for me. Radar can detect target below you with the T symbol and it can still be near the + on the radar. Maybe I'm mistaken. Hope that made sense I'm not very good at explaining things. Best to get visual of the fighter.

 

Now when an F-15 and Su-27 use ambush tactics and AWACS, that is a scary site.

[lucien]

I've Tried R-55's their IR missiles, make HUGE explosions, but have a short range.

 

it's the RS-2US that are also radar guided, and their not as fast, shorter range and don't turn as good as the R-3Rs, but i got my first missile kill in the mig-21 online with a couple of the RS-2US's... before i learned of the r-3r

 

Not as fast, shorter range and don't turn as well.......is there any reason to take them other than giggles? Bigger warhead?

[Hadwell]

Not as fast, shorter range and don't turn as well.......is there any reason to take them other than giggles? Bigger warhead?

 

yeah, their bigger.

[Hadwell]

[lucien]

 

Yes, I know. What I'm saying is the target is not constantly in the same place when maneuvering, and that is possible for the target to actually be below you, but still on the + only while maneuvering.

[Hadwell]

Yes, I know. What I'm saying is the target is not constantly in the same place when maneuvering, and that is possible for the target to actually be below you, but still on the + only while maneuvering.

ah i see, yeah, you can't be prepared for every situation...

 

but i can't think of any other way than ambush and surprise to really effectively, not just by pure random luck, get fighter kills with the mig-21...

 

I'm hoping someone else figures something out.

 

key word: fighter.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Hadwell

[SilentGun]

Just recently acquired the "balls" to go up against modern fighters in the MiG-21, and I must say it is a very thrilling experience! I've bagged at least 3 Su-27's and about 4 eagles.

[ff4life4]

that's why, in the mig-21, you stay on the deck, hide yourself with hills, so if someone tries to avoid your radar lock by diving, the ground is in the way... and even using r-3rs you need a visual on the target, cause he can just turn out of your lock even on the deck, you get the lock, then put the target on the + on the radar, then look at the top x on the gunsight, should be right there... you don't absolultly have to put him right directly on your nose, can get used to wherever he is, but simplest.

 

 

from my point of view, modern fighter pilots are mostly lazy and go for long-range attacks, or rely too much on the sensors and forget that just because someone's turned off their radar or hid behind a hill doesn't mean they've just disappeared entirely... and never expect someone to magically pop up 10km away in-front and underneath them... that surprise quite often gives more than enough time to smoke them with a couple r-3rs

 

all my posts in this whole thread, from my first post to here, are about ambush tactics... including everything i've said in this post. plus some other stuff....

 

 

the only way you'd be above someone or co-alt with them is if you weren't ambushing them.

 

if they've matched you(you meet on a peak for example), and their missiles have a longer range than you, and their prepared for you, then you die... if you don't escape...

 

 

definition for ambush: a surprise attack by lying in wait in a concealed position

 

Hey I appreciate the response. After flying the Mig21 up against other fighters a lot of these tactics I have learned as well. I am usually always staying down low, and try to use AWACS to direct me toward where the enemy planes are located. Keepin my Radar off until I know there within 15 miles and closing on them fast. I then try to get a quick lock on, and a quick r3r shot off. Ill follow the missiles path and ill usually be able to visually acquire the target. I continue to support the missile. If it misses i will either fire a second one, or I will go radar off and switch to R-60M. (R-60M isn't very good against A10c. They have a low heat sig, and they have that missile warning system, so it will alert them to the launch and if they pop flares the missile has a good chance of chasing them. But the R60M is good against hot fighters.)

 

Thats my goal, is to hit em fast and move on. My comment about the radar not looking down good comes from the times where I have tried to go after a10s that were far away at 20k feet (info from awacs). Ill try to fly high to save fuel (since it was over 100 miles to get to the tgt area). ill be at about 18,000k when there at 20,000 and they will dive, but then I go radar off and attempt going in with guns/IR.

 

I have been using the R-13M1 more as well, I have gotten an f15 kill with it. I believe it is equivalent to the Aim-9P. You can't carry it in doubles, but for some reason I have noticed they are more resistant to flares. Im not sure if its just luck or what. They have slightly longer range, and pack a much bigger punch as far as warhead goes. I have hit a-10s with r60m, and have had them not go down. R-13m1 put them down every time. But try out the R-13m1 and let me know what your experiences are.

Edited November 24, 2014 by ff4life4

[Hadwell]

yeah i was practicing with the R-13M1 offline last night, and it scared the crap outta me the first time i launched one and it hit, much bigger explosion, it does have a much better tracking system, compared to the r-3s...

 

http://weaponsystems.net/weapon.php?weapon=HH07+-+AA-2+Atoll

 

So I practiced some more with the R-13M1s, and yes, their far better than R-3S's,

 

i hit at about 4km away with them...

 

the R-55 missile, actually pretty ok, acted like the flares weren't even there, hit dead on from 6KM (offline testing), better than the R-13M1 imo

Edited November 24, 2014 by Hadwell

[Darkwolf]

Is anyone having issue with IFF online ? I've friendly fired someone on the 104th.

 

I banged a couple of F15 and a Su-25 on the COG server yesterday, just loosing one Mig to a engine failure at low alt while RTBing. As soon as you have some cover such mountain, you can have fun. Still, the hardest point is maintening SA when you don't have AWACS (or when radio isn't set properly as most server missions are), and also to refrain attacking whatever shows up. Most of the time, you just stick around waiting for the good opportunity.

 

Regarding the missiles....I got a little logbook of my own. I fired seven R3-R over the last few days, 6 have hit their target. It hasn't much range but that's a damn good missile.

[Sleksa]

I've been flying with the mig for a while now and mostly getting shot down while trying to go for the enemy fighters.

 

This evening I got lucky with it though. After a few failed attempts, I managed to sneak up on a su-27 and fire 3x r-3's but he was too agile and managed to out-turn the missiles, prompting me to afterburn away like a coward. After a few minutes I thought I was being chased by a enemy fighter with the RWR going on and off 24/7 (when in reality I was close enough to enemy airfield for their s-300's to fire at me). Oblivious that i had a truck-size missile coming at me and thinking I was still being chased by a phantom F-15, I Managed to get a sneak on 2 su-27's and down one of them with the last remaining R-3 while also going for a gun-kill on the second but a second before a good gun solution I got slammed down by a S-300 :cry:.

 

 

The end of the flight against the su-27 and s-300's can be seen here:

http://www.twitch.tv/sleksa/c/5559702

Edited November 24, 2014 by Sleksa

[ff4life4]

yeah i was practicing with the R-13M1 offline last night, and it scared the crap outta me the first time i launched one and it hit, much bigger explosion, it does have a much better tracking system, compared to the r-3s...

 

http://weaponsystems.net/weapon.php?weapon=HH07+-+AA-2+Atoll

 

So I practiced some more with the R-13M1s, and yes, their far better than R-3S's,

 

i hit at about 4km away with them...

 

the R-55 missile, actually pretty ok, acted like the flares weren't even there, hit dead on from 6KM (offline testing), better than the R-13M1 imo

 

 

Never though about the r55. I thought they would suck so I never loaded them up. I never chose r-3s either. I have taken r60m because it's really maneuverable and the sensor is good. However it loves to chase flares. That's why I have tried r-13m1 as it seems to me to chase flares less.

 

If the r-55 is really good at not chasing flares I may start taking it. I know it's not a dogfight missile but I try not to dogfight with mig21. One pass and haul ass. Flares have been why the r60m for me have been less than steller. Also it's not reliable in taking down a10s in one hit.

 

I will test all the IR missiles this week using scenarios i make in the mission editor. I'll let you know findings

[*Rage*]

^ interested to see the result.

[scaflight]

Sometimes you really should keep your head on a swivel to understand what's going on around you. If friendly SAMs are launching, perhaps Migs should be launching as well?

 

A single RWR beep, and you know you have to play the shadow.

 

That you must use his curiousity against him to strike him directly in the face.

 

Sometimes you get them on radar, then they disappear the next second for no discernable reason. Then the siren starts and you pop, turn, and run.

 

In the frenzy you miss the obvious.

 

Defeating Sparrows in a turn is no stress, defeating AMRAAMs in a straight line is stupid. My target is dead ahead. So close yet so far.

 

I longed for encounters with other Fishbeds, but if this was not sufficient... maybe it's not meant to be. :)

 

 

PS. Please reduce canopy clutter. I love it, but I hate it.

[lucien]

Sometimes you really should keep your head on a swivel to understand what's going on around you. If friendly SAMs are launching, perhaps Migs should be launching as well?

 

A single RWR beep, and you know you have to play the shadow.

 

That you must use his curiousity against him to strike him directly in the face.

 

Sometimes you get them on radar, then they disappear the next second for no discernable reason. Then the siren starts and you pop, turn, and run.

 

In the frenzy you miss the obvious.

 

Defeating Sparrows in a turn is no stress, defeating AMRAAMs in a straight line is stupid. My target is dead ahead. So close yet so far.

 

I longed for encounters with other Fishbeds, but if this was not sufficient... maybe it's not meant to be. :)

 

 

PS. Please reduce canopy clutter. I love it, but I hate it.

 

that was an epic tacview story :D

[*Rage*]

Sometimes you really should keep your head on a swivel to understand what's going on around you. If friendly SAMs are launching, perhaps Migs should be launching as well?

 

A single RWR beep, and you know you have to play the shadow.

 

That you must use his curiousity against him to strike him directly in the face.

 

Sometimes you get them on radar, then they disappear the next second for no discernable reason. Then the siren starts and you pop, turn, and run.

 

In the frenzy you miss the obvious.

 

Defeating Sparrows in a turn is no stress, defeating AMRAAMs in a straight line is stupid. My target is dead ahead. So close yet so far.

 

I longed for encounters with other Fishbeds, but if this was not sufficient... maybe it's not meant to be. :)

 

 

PS. Please reduce canopy clutter. I love it, but I hate it.

 

Great story.

 

Theres a mod for canopy and hud dirt.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=132289

[Brisse]

You guys are so much fun, discussing MiG-21bis vs. modern fighters. :)

Personally I get shot down by Mustangs and Sabres all the time when I fly the 21. Yes, they outnumber me by 8 to 1, in the particular mission I use, but still... My KD ratio against these AI (high skill setting) mustangs and Sabres are about 1:1. Terrible :D

[PiedDroit]

Did you guys tried to use the fixed beam mode of the radar in close range combat? It allows you to get a radar lock very quickly, just put the bad guy on the piper and lock on.

I don't know if it works well against modern aircraft, piloted by humans (it does against AI, as soon as you've got some room to keep the lock, it's good to go).

[ff4life4]

Did you guys tried to use the fixed beam mode of the radar in close range combat? It allows you to get a radar lock very quickly, just put the bad guy on the piper and lock on.

I don't know if it works well against modern aircraft, piloted by humans (it does against AI, as soon as you've got some room to keep the lock, it's good to go).

 

I have tried this mode and personally I have had 0 luck with it in the heat of battle. For this situation I carry R60m or R-13M1 :D

[Hadwell]

Did you guys tried to use the fixed beam mode of the radar in close range combat? It allows you to get a radar lock very quickly, just put the bad guy on the piper and lock on.

I don't know if it works well against modern aircraft, piloted by humans (it does against AI, as soon as you've got some room to keep the lock, it's good to go).

 

I haven't tried it online vs modern fighters but it works against everything I've shot at offline even with grom missiles

 

When I get into that situation online I'll definitely try it