FW190 dogfighting tactics?

[MrGreezy]

I must admit, on the axis side, for the many generations of WWII sims, I have nearly exclusively flown the 109. I'm assuming it's somewhat similar to the 190 in terms of what you want to do -- have altitude, use your speed, don't get caught in a turning fight.

 

Is there much else? What should you make sure never to do? I noticed that low 'n slow, the 190 turns very sluggish, but picks up responsiveness with speed. Just curious, as I'm hoping some 190 experts can share their wisdom.

[Solty]

I must admit, on the axis side, for the many generations of WWII sims, I have nearly exclusively flown the 109. I'm assuming it's somewhat similar to the 190 in terms of what you want to do -- have altitude, use your speed, don't get caught in a turning fight.

 

Is there much else? What should you make sure never to do? I noticed that low 'n slow, the 190 turns very sluggish, but picks up responsiveness with speed. Just curious, as I'm hoping some 190 experts can share their wisdom.

 

190 has very good instantenous turn. Which means you can pull a lot of lead at your target at high speed. Its sustained turn though falls a little bit short behind the 51.

 

What you should do is to lure the enemy to vertical fight.

 

Your biggest advantage is your roll rate. Use it to win scissors.

[RideR2]

I know it's War Thunder but you can learn very much from that guy.

https://www.youtube.com/user/StalkerOfMolem/videos

[fastfreddie]

I must admit, on the axis side, for the many generations of WWII sims, I have nearly exclusively flown the 109. I'm assuming it's somewhat similar to the 190 in terms of what you want to do -- have altitude, use your speed, don't get caught in a turning fight.

 

Is there much else? What should you make sure never to do? I noticed that low 'n slow, the 190 turns very sluggish, but picks up responsiveness with speed. Just curious, as I'm hoping some 190 experts can share their wisdom.

 

Sounds like you pretty much understand what you need to do ... just putting it all into place is whats hardest with the Dora. Deflection shooting is pretty much a requirement for a good Dora pilot to master unless you plan on catching every Mustang off guard. Learn defensive maneuvers also for the Dora which will differ somewhat from the K-4. You can do some low speed dog fighting with the Dora but I wouldn't suggest it unless your sure he's alone and you have a good grasp on using flaps at low speed. I think Dora pilots have to have the most situational awareness of all the WWII planes released so far because its so easy to get in big trouble quickly in it.

 

I almost never climb in the Dora when I have a Mustang going a similiar speed within 800 meters on my six. Just keep your nose down and gain speed/distance before climbing. I did a video with some horizontal defensive maneuvers on what I'm talking about somewhere around the 5:00 mark or so.

 

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Nice freddie, I've had to adopt the same tactics when taking out my Dora, it was difficult to have to discipline myself at first but after a while you begin to understand why and you end up setting yourself up better the first buzz rather than engaging and breaking, running and reengaging time after time.

[fastfreddie]

Nice freddie, I've had to adopt the same tactics when taking out my Dora, it was difficult to have to discipline myself at first but after a while you begin to understand why and you end up setting yourself up better the first buzz rather than engaging and breaking, running and reengaging time after time.

 

Yeah, discipline is key to the Dora and I know it is hard when finding targets on some of the missions can be very hard. I see alot of players getting pissed when flying against the Mustang because they usually all do the same evasive maneuvers (pull up to the left/right or roll out) and lose discipline pretty quick even with other Mustangs in the area.

[MrGreezy]

So say you get caught with your pants down, or make a blunder and now you've got a Mustang on your 6. Is there any hope of turning it around or is it stall until help arrives?

 

It was said that the 190 is good in the scissor -- have you had luck with actually getting in a position to attack from defense?

[otto]

So say you get caught with your pants down, or make a blunder and now you've got a Mustang on your 6. Is there any hope of turning it around or is it stall until help arrives?

 

It was said that the 190 is good in the scissor -- have you had luck with actually getting in a position to attack from defense?

 

This kind of fight should be avoided .But if you're impatient like me than:

 

This if footage from my first hours of online flight with Dora.

Watch after 12:09 .

Hven't spent a lot of time on youtube lately so I have not seen other videos with dora scissors action. If i knew some video with better action i would give you the link.

 

 

Ps: Waiting for edge to get better framerate, netcode ;) . Imho you need excellent performance for this type of fights.

Edited January 29, 2015 by otto

[fastfreddie]

So say you get caught with your pants down, or make a blunder and now you've got a Mustang on your 6. Is there any hope of turning it around or is it stall until help arrives?

 

It was said that the 190 is good in the scissor -- have you had luck with actually getting in a position to attack from defense?

 

Yes, the maneuver I used in the video to initiate the scissors works 95% of the time on most pilots in starting the process. The pilots I was facing in the video are a very good pair that fly together alot of the time and used proper judgement for their situation. When you have a height/altitude advantage in a Mustang I can't see many reasons for ever wanting to give it up to go into scissors with a Dora. Just be careful in what situations you put yourself in because the Dora is not a plane that forgives mistakes against the Mustang very easily much like the Mustang pilots are finding with the K-4.

[Solty]

So say you get caught with your pants down, or make a blunder and now you've got a Mustang on your 6. Is there any hope of turning it around or is it stall until help arrives?

 

It was said that the 190 is good in the scissor -- have you had luck with actually getting in a position to attack from defense?

 

Yes you can win scissors easier due to the very good roll rate. But it is not a easy way to get out of trouble and you need to be skilled to do that easily. The problem is to make the guy enter scissors with you.

 

There is an easier way. Fw190D9 B4+MW50 is faster than the mustang version we have in game. So you can just run away out of most trouble.

[fastfreddie]

So say you get caught with your pants down, or make a blunder and now you've got a Mustang on your 6. Is there any hope of turning it around or is it stall until help arrives?

 

It was said that the 190 is good in the scissor -- have you had luck with actually getting in a position to attack from defense?

 

One other good maneuver I've found to use in the Dora whether in a defensive or offensive maneuver position in vertical looping fight is to cut the loop in half so to speak. Keep visuals on the enemy your with in a looping circuit so when he enters the bottoms of the loop and you are at the top of the loop ... roll your plane and come straight down on him.

 

Not a great example because we both entered the vertical fight on angles but check around the 9:40 mark to get an idea.

 

 

Also if you in a defensive loop change the angles of the loop ... say a start a loop going straight (12 oclock) with an enemy behind you as you go up or down change the angle to (10/11/1/2 oclock angle) and make fluid changes depending on what your enemies are doing. I have a good example of that in my K4 "Murder by the Bay" video if you want to see it. It's the second combat clip about a minute or so in but the principle applies to all aircraft. You can also use greater changes to the looping maneuver by cutting it half or changing the direction all together in faster rolling planes.

Edited January 29, 2015 by fastfreddie

[MrGreezy]

It seems that most text books call the 190 the superior fighter to the 109, but the latter seems more capable, at least more nimble. Why does the 190 have so much notoriety?

[Solty]

It seems that most text books call the 190 the superior fighter to the 109, but the latter seems more capable, at least more nimble. Why does the 190 have so much notoriety?

 

That is because 109 had big issues at high speed, where at speeds above 500kph the pilot had to use both hands on stick and much muscle power to move the plane around. This isn't modeled in DCS (yet. YoYo said that it will be implemented, we are still in beta). This was caused by small elevator surface and bad alerion design for high speed fights. So that roll rate was poor and elevator control was not up on par with Fw190. 190 also was simpler to take off and land and had better energy rentention. Additionally the 190 had better cockpit and cockpit layout and handling at all speeds was very good. Additionally it had the highest roll rate of all piston engine fighters during the war(A8 having better than D9)

 

Before K4 the Fw190D9 was way faster at most altitudes than the 109. Also, 190A version had radial engines that meant it could sustain more damage than the 109.

 

So IRL when 109 fought against the Mustang at high speed and alititude, all the P-51 pilot had to do is to break right and the 109 couldn't follow as the pilot didn't have enough strenght. The 190 pilot could easily pull lead on the P-51 in the same maneuver.

 

That meant that many 109 pilots assumed the P-51 had better turn and didn't wanted to engage in a turnfight scenario.

 

Out of all these fighters that I mentioned, though at lower speeds the 109 has the best sustained turn.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Solty

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Great point Solty! Good read!

[Narushima]

When fighting a rolling scissor match, most pilots make the mistake of trying to pull lead or pure pursuit.

 

If you pull lead you're just going to end up in front of the enemy, and if you're pulling pure the best you can hope for is crashing into his canopy.

 

In a rolling scissor match you should be chasing his tail, not his canopy or nose. What I mean by that is, pull so that your lift vector is always pointing towards the space behind his aircraft. This is lag pursuit. Done correctly, you should always win a rolling scissor match with the Dora this way.

[MrGreezy]

Thanks for the rundown Solty. Interesting stuff. I hope they do model that stick resistance in the 109.

 

And Narushima, that's actually genuinely useful information. I've been doing it all wrong.

 

What should one be doing with the throttle in a defensive scissor? Are you powering down so as your pursuer might overtake you, or is it full throttle and trying to work a sharper angle with timed turns?

[Crumpp]

That meant that many 109 pilots assumed the P-51 had better turn and didn't wanted to engage in a turnfight scenario.

 

To add to Solty's good explanation of how agility can defeat better sustained level turn performance which was certainly a large contributing factor to the 109 pilot's perception.

 

USAAF pilots had G-suits and could sustain more accelerations in the fight with less physiological side effects. You did not have to out-turn the airplane, only the man inside it.

[fastfreddie]

Thanks for the rundown Solty. Interesting stuff. I hope they do model that stick resistance in the 109.

 

And Narushima, that's actually genuinely useful information. I've been doing it all wrong.

 

What should one be doing with the throttle in a defensive scissor? Are you powering down so as your pursuer might overtake you, or is it full throttle and trying to work a sharper angle with timed turns?

 

Depends on the situation ... I like to preform scissors when an enemy has a much greater speed advantage so I just keep the throttle on while making quicker turns. Once you have them in front of you which doesn't take but a few scissor maneuvers you can start getting great deflection shots or roll in behind him at some point when he either decides to fly straight through or you have a good enough position to just sit behind him. Slowing down to try to enter scissors with a good pilot behind you can be difficult because they have a few options. They can slow down also and keep their distance while getting deflection shots. Like in the video when they have speed they can just fly through or pull up keeping the speed and altitude advantage probably leaving you in a worse situation than before. The newer pilots in the Mustang are the main ones that get caught in slow speed scissor actions and defeated usually. This is why I use the small defensive swings to evade getting shot while picking back up my speed. It works much better in extending the engagement or giving me an exit when caught going low and slow.

[Crumpp]

The P-51 and Dora seem very evenly matched in terms of level sustained turn performance.