Will one of the two variants be AG ?

[SkateZilla]

F-14A:

Original Production Model, Capable of Dropping A2G Iron and Laser Bombs (Dropping Laser Ordnance required assistance from other aircraft (F-18s etc) for Laser Designation.

 

F-14A+/B:

Same as A, Upgraded FireControl, Engines, etc

 

F-14B Upgrade:

F-14A+/B w/ Extended Life upgrades, among those is the Multi Mission Packages.

Capable of Dropping A2G munnitions without assistance.

 

F-14D:

Final Production Model

 

F-14D®:

When Purchases of Production models were cancelled, Navy Purchased Upgrade Plan,

F-14As were re-built to D Standards, thus designated F-14D®.

 

D's are capable of A2G with no assistance, as the D Blocks and BuNos all contained the B Model Extended Life Upgrades.

 

This coming from someone with Several Pilots as friends, a father that worked on them, (all variants), Ive read the manuals.

 

And I am a Moderator, and This argument part of the debate between both parties is pretty much over from this point forward.

(Keep it clean and civil)

 

Have a nice day.

Edited March 4, 2015 by SkateZilla

[Dudikoff]

F-14B Upgrade:

F-14A+/B w/ Extended Life upgrades, among those is the Multi Mission Packages. Capable of Dropping A2G munnitions without assistance.

 

D's are capable of A2G with no assistance, as the D Blocks and BuNos all contained the B Model Extended Life Upgrades.

 

This coming from someone with Several Pilots as friends, a father that worked on them, (all variants), Ive read the manuals.

 

But things are not that simple. There were multiple upgrades throughout the lifetimes of all of these variants so you have to be clear when referring the variant capabilities as these were not the same in e.g. 1993 and 2003. For instance, the D's (as well as Bombcat B's) were not capable of self-designating LGBs until the LANTIRN Targeting System was integrated in 1996.

 

This of course leads to a question to developers on which exact standard would be modeled for both A and B variants.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Dudikoff

[SkateZilla]

The 67 F-14B Upgrade Block I Aircraft

And were capable of self designating.

 

As and A+/B early Blocks required a Aircraft to designate for them,

 

Which is what I said.

 

F-14B Block I allows independant deployment of LGBs, it did not allow them to use Stand off weapons (MAV, JDAM, HARM, SLAM, etc).

AIM-120 capability was tested but never officially deployed to the fleet.

 

Ds were the only model capable of A2G Radar use to find targets using Ground Mapping of the APG71.

Edited March 4, 2015 by SkateZilla

[Dudikoff]

The 67 F-14B Upgrade Block Aircraft arrived less than a year before the D Models started coming in.

And were capable of self designating.

 

As and A+/B early Blocks required a Aircraft to designate for them, Which is what I said.

 

OK, then please tell me which system was laser designating the targets for the LGBs on those B's and D's? This was simply not possible before the LTS integration which was completed in 1996.

[SkateZilla]

F-14B Block I (not the production -14B-145s) Adds LANTIRN FLIR POD, Cockpit Night Lighting and Compatible Equipment for Night A2G Operations. (And Counter Measures to support that Role)

And it was a Modified LANTIRN that allows ot to work with the -14B-155 and -D-165s, hence the LTS.

 

Even with early Bs and A Models we could carry dumb bombs and LGBs as the SMS had supported it.

 

Just gonna have to get an A-10C or F-18C Pilot to lase targets in MP (and Maybe JTAC).

Edited March 4, 2015 by SkateZilla

[Dudikoff]

F-14B Block I Adds LANTIRN FLIR POD, Cockpit Night Lighting and Compatible Equipment for Night A2G Operations.

And it was a Modified LANTIRN that allows ot to work with the -14B-155 and -D-165s, hence the LTS.

 

Even with early Bs and A Models we could carry dumb bombs and LGBs as the SMS had supported it.

 

Just gonna have to get an A-10C or F-18C Pilot to lase targets

 

I know what the LTS is, but, Block 1 upgrade is a separate upgrade from the initial A/B Upgrade and was rejected as unaffordable and LTS was integrated as part of the Precision Strike Program (available from 1996). The F-14D's also had to be modified to be able to operate it and thus they couldn't self-designate targets for the LGBs from the get-go (as you claimed).

 

And you stated this originally, hence my response:

 

The 67 F-14B Upgrade Block Aircraft arrived less than a year before the D Models started coming in. And were capable of self designating.

 

Since you've edited some of the posts in question, I guess this needs not going any further.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Dudikoff

[SkateZilla]

AFAIK, Block 1 upgrade was rejected as unaffordable and LANTIRN was integrated as part of the Precision Strike Program (again, completed in 1996).

 

Correct, AFAIK, I might be getting the Block I and PSP details backwards, (its been a while).(and Docs List Block I Upgrade as psrt of the PSP)

 

I know Block I was for standard gravity and LG Bombs, while the proposal to make the Tomcat like the F-15E and use Precision Stand off Weapons (JDAM, SLAM HARM etc) was Denied to be too expensive, instead Block I was chosen to fill the void left from the A-6E retiring until the SuperBug Numbers reach OC.

Edited March 4, 2015 by SkateZilla

[MBot]

F-14A:

Original Production Model, Capable of Dropping A2G Iron and Laser Bombs (Dropping Laser Ordnance required assistance from other aircraft (F-18s etc) for Laser Designation.

 

F-14A+/B:

Same as A, Upgraded FireControl, Engines, etc

 

F-14B Upgrade:

F-14A+/B w/ Extended Life upgrades, among those is the Multi Mission Packages.

Capable of Dropping A2G munnitions without assistance.

 

F-14D:

Final Production Model

 

F-14D®:

When Purchases of Production models were cancelled, Navy Purchased Upgrade Plan,

F-14As were re-built to D Standards, thus designated F-14D®.

 

Where do F-14A (TF30) with LANTIRN fit in?

[SkateZilla]

Where do F-14A (TF30) with LANTIRN fit in?

 

Afaik, they had to be upgraded to Bs before receiving the LTS capability

.

[MBot]

But there are plenty of pictures with TF30 jets carrying LANTIRN.

[SkateZilla]

But there are plenty of pictures with TF30 jets carrying LANTIRN.

 

That requirement might have been part of the rejected Block I program. I dunno, Im on mobile network right now, so I dont have access to my books.

[xaoslaad]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-14sf.htm

 

"Precision Strike provides the F-14 the capability to deliver laser-guided bombs for air-to-ground missions. It consists of the LANTIRN pod with laser designator and internal navigation system, LANTIRN control panel and night vision capable displays. In LANTIRN equipped F-14As and F-14Bs, the TID has been replaced with the PTID. In 1994 the Navy planned to spend over $2.5 billion to add limited ground attack capability and other improvements to 210 F-14 Tomcat fighter aircraft (53 F-14Ds, 81 F-14Bs, and 76 F-14As). The ground attack capabilities were required to partially compensate for the loss in combat capabilities during the period starting in 1997, when all of its A-6E Intruder attack aircraft were retired, to the turn of the century when the F/A-18E/F, the next generation strike fighter, was scheduled to arrive. The strike enhancement program began in FY 1995 and completed in FY 2000, with 50 aircraft in FY 1998, 24 in FY 1999, and seven in FY 2000. The F-14 is undergoing two upgrades."

 

Also:

 

"The A/B initial upgrade, includes structural modifications to extend the F-14's fatigue life to 7,500 hours, improved defensive capabilities and cockpit displays, and incorporation of digital architecture and mission computers to speed data processing time and add software capacity.

Block I adds a LANTIRN Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod with a built-in laser to designate targets and allow F-14s to independently drop laser guided bombs (LGBs), a modified cockpit for night attack operations (night vision devices and compatible lighting), and enhanced defensive countermeasures. The A/B upgrade had to be incorporated into 157 F-14 aircraft before the Block I upgrade could be added. "

 

I believe there were A, B, and D bombcats, in addition to A and B non-bombcats.

 

Edit: And reading that it's not clear to me if there were even non-bombcat D's.

Edited March 4, 2015 by xaoslaad

[SkateZilla]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-14sf.htm

 

"Precision Strike provides the F-14 the capability to deliver laser-guided bombs for air-to-ground missions. It consists of the LANTIRN pod with laser designator and internal navigation system, LANTIRN control panel and night vision capable displays. In LANTIRN equipped F-14As and F-14Bs, the TID has been replaced with the PTID. In 1994 the Navy planned to spend over $2.5 billion to add limited ground attack capability and other improvements to 210 F-14 Tomcat fighter aircraft (53 F-14Ds, 81 F-14Bs, and 76 F-14As). The ground attack capabilities were required to partially compensate for the loss in combat capabilities during the period starting in 1997, when all of its A-6E Intruder attack aircraft were retired, to the turn of the century when the F/A-18E/F, the next generation strike fighter, was scheduled to arrive. The strike enhancement program began in FY 1995 and completed in FY 2000, with 50 aircraft in FY 1998, 24 in FY 1999, and seven in FY 2000. The F-14 is undergoing two upgrades."

 

Also:

 

"The A/B initial upgrade, includes structural modifications to extend the F-14's fatigue life to 7,500 hours, improved defensive capabilities and cockpit displays, and incorporation of digital architecture and mission computers to speed data processing time and add software capacity.

Block I adds a LANTIRN Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod with a built-in laser to designate targets and allow F-14s to independently drop laser guided bombs (LGBs), a modified cockpit for night attack operations (night vision devices and compatible lighting), and enhanced defensive countermeasures. The A/B upgrade had to be incorporated into 157 F-14 aircraft before the Block I upgrade could be added. "

 

I believe there were A, B, and D bombcats, in addition to A and B non-bombcats.

 

Last Line of Block I upgrade, says the A to B Upgrade had to be.completed before applying the Block I

[xaoslaad]

I don't think it was an A to B upgrade but rather an A and B upgrade. It's not very clear to me.

 

"The A/B initial upgrade, includes structural modifications to extend the F-14's fatigue life to 7,500 hours, improved defensive capabilities and cockpit displays, and incorporation of digital architecture and mission computers to speed data processing time and add software capacity. "

 

Wasn't one of the biggest things about the B the improved engines? That's a pretty big omission to leave off that list.

 

 

Edit: It also says, "The A/B upgrade had to be incorporated into 157 F-14 aircraft before the Block I upgrade could be added." That's more than all the B's that ever existed by like double. Weren't there like 87 or something? 67 became bombcats. Those numbers are in the ballpark I think.

 

Edit: Wikipedia (with it's references available for these comments) tells me, "A total of 38 new aircraft were manufactured and 48 F-14A were upgraded into B variants.

 

Also, "In the late 1990s, 67 F-14Bs were upgraded to extend airframe life and improve offensive and defensive avionics systems. The modified aircraft became known as F-14B Upgrade or as "Bombcat".

Edited March 4, 2015 by xaoslaad

[Dudikoff]

Also:

 

"The A/B initial upgrade, includes structural modifications to extend the F-14's fatigue life to 7,500 hours, improved defensive capabilities and cockpit displays, and incorporation of digital architecture and mission computers to speed data processing time and add software capacity.

Block I adds a LANTIRN Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod with a built-in laser to designate targets and allow F-14s to independently drop laser guided bombs (LGBs), a modified cockpit for night attack operations (night vision devices and compatible lighting), and enhanced defensive countermeasures. The A/B upgrade had to be incorporated into 157 F-14 aircraft before the Block I upgrade could be added. "

 

I believe there were A, B, and D bombcats, in addition to A and B non-bombcats.

 

Edit: And reading that it's not clear to me if there were even non-bombcat D's.

 

These seem to be quotes from the GAO report after which I believe the Block I Strike program was cancelled:

 

http://fas.org/man/gao/gao9512.htm

 

Bombcat nomination is somewhat misleading since there was a range of upgrades (I don't think it was official anyway) and I never saw it referring to the D's, but probably just to the initial A/B Upgrade.

 

I don't think it was an A to B upgrade but rather an A and B upgrade. It's not very clear to me.

 

Yes, it's A/B Upgrade (as from the GAO report at least) which means the initial A2G upgrade done to both A and B variants (the upgrades differed slightly in terms of installed equipment).

Edited March 4, 2015 by Dudikoff

[xaoslaad]

OK, so that clarifies some of it.

 

If Block I was to bring in LANTIRN support but was canceled where did that support come in? Was there a smaller upgrade approved, was it rolled into the A/B upgrade?

[SkateZilla]

OK, so that clarifies some of it.

 

If Block I was to bring in LANTIRN support but was canceled where did that support come in? Was there a smaller upgrade approved, was it rolled into the A/B upgrade?

 

When A-6s were being retired they asked for a demo of the LANTIRN on the Tomcat.

[Dudikoff]

OK, so that clarifies some of it.

 

If Block I was to bring in LANTIRN support but was canceled where did that support come in? Was there a smaller upgrade approved, was it rolled into the A/B upgrade?

 

Apparently, it was either from the JDAM integration funds (as I read today in some article) or the AMRAAM integration funds (there was an article recently on the Tomcat in which some official stated that they had to choose between AMRAAM and LTS upgrade and chose the latter as it seemed obvious that the upcoming ops would require more A2G capability rather than air superiority so they could make the Tomcats more useful and keep them in service longer).

 

Block I Strike upgrade was a much more comprehensive and expensive program (1.6 Billion USD) consisting of three stages apparently and only the last one was supposed to integrate the targeting pod.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Dudikoff

[SkateZilla]

Block I didnt have enough funding, the funds availible would have only covered JDAM integration, which was not ready yet anyway.

[xaoslaad]

Ya, OK, I see that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LANTIRN

 

"The pod also featured an internal computer with ballistics data for the various precision munitions carried by the F-14. Data is fed to the pod by the Tomcat’s AWG-9 (F-14A and F-14B) and AN/APG-71 (F-14D) radar, but the LTS in turn only sends video and guidance symbology to the crew's cockpit displays. This means that few wiring and software changes had to be made to the Tomcat in order for it to operate the LTS. All pod controls are in the RIO’s cockpit, but the bomb release button is situated with the pilot. The LTS had a price tag of around 3 million US Dollars each and due to these high costs, only 75 were bought for fleet use. Typically, an F-14 squadron brought 6 to 8 pods with them on deployment, which would be permanently fitted to the non-TARPS jets."

 

So you'd have a squadron of Tomcats with 6 or 8 with the LTS, making them more or less what we're all wanting to call a bomcat, even though all of the ones with the A/B upgrade could probably handle the pod and were probably bombcat capable of there were a pod attached. Since it was a semi-permanent attachment that basically means there were A,B, and D bombcats and non-bombcats, with some A's and B's being bombcat capable and probably all D's being bombcat capable.

 

I'm starting to get the idea though that 'bombcat' is indeed a very loose designation.

 

They also mention VF-32 which was F-14A's from reading and VF-103 which were A+/B's, so it appears yes, both were capable.

Edited March 4, 2015 by xaoslaad

[SkateZilla]

Ya, OK, I see that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LANTIRN

 

"The pod also featured an internal computer with ballistics data for the various precision munitions carried by the F-14. Data is fed to the pod by the Tomcat’s AWG-9 (F-14A and F-14B) and AN/APG-71 (F-14D) radar, but the LTS in turn only sends video and guidance symbology to the crew's cockpit displays. This means that few wiring and software changes had to be made to the Tomcat in order for it to operate the LTS. All pod controls are in the RIO’s cockpit, but the bomb release button is situated with the pilot. The LTS had a price tag of around 3 million US Dollars each and due to these high costs, only 75 were bought for fleet use. Typically, an F-14 squadron brought 6 to 8 pods with them on deployment, which would be permanently fitted to the non-TARPS jets."

 

So you'd have a squadron of Tomcats with 6 or 8 with the LTS, making them more or less what we're all wanting to call a bomcat, even though all of the ones with the A/B upgrade could probably handle the pod and were probably bombcat capable of there were a pod attached. Since it was a semi-permanent attachment that basically means there were A,B, and D bombcats and non-bombcats, with some A's and B's being bombcat capable and probably all D's being bombcat capable.

 

I'm starting to get the idea though that 'bombcat' is indeed a very loose designation.

 

The LTS took away TARPS iirc, so some were LTS while others retained TARPS until the F-18s took over that role

[Dudikoff]

So you'd have a squadron of Tomcats with 6 or 8 with the LTS, making them more or less what we're all wanting to call a bomcat, even though all of the ones with the A/B upgrade could probably handle the pod and were probably bombcat capable of there were a pod attached. Since it was a semi-permanent attachment that basically means there were A,B, and D bombcats and non-bombcats, with some A's and B's being bombcat capable and probably all D's being bombcat capable.

 

I'm starting to get the idea though that 'bombcat' is indeed a very loose designation.

 

Err, not really. To operate the LTS, you need to have a control stick installed; the digital bus was installed earlier with the A/B Upgrade program. But, again, I don't think Bombcat referred to these later upgrades so I'm not sure these "Bombcat capable" terms you insist on are correct.

 

The LTS took away TARPS iirc, so some were LTS while others retained TARPS until the F-18s took over that role

 

The LTS control stick was installed in place of the TARPS control console, but apparently some workaround was found later on so that both LTS and TARPS could be operated (not sure what, perhaps the TARPS controls were installed on some other panel).

Edited March 4, 2015 by Dudikoff

[xaoslaad]

I'm not insisting on anything. I am trying to get a clear picture myself :)

 

Yes, they mentioned in that article some had LANTIRN, some had TARPS, and I have also read later they had a work around to be able to do both.

 

Anyway, it seems the bombcat updates were a little dynamic as time wore on and improvements came.

[Dudikoff]

I'm not insisting on anything. I am trying to get a clear picture myself :)

 

So does everybody; just trying to make a point that I've read a few articles on the upgrades since the announcement and never heard of the term "Bombcat capable" and you mentioned it three times in that post, hence the insist part :) Just feel it's introducing more confusion, sorry.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Dudikoff

[xaoslaad]

So does everybody; just trying to make a point that I've read a few articles on the upgrades since the announcement and never heard of the term "Bombcat capable" and you mentioned it three times in that post, hence the insist part :) Just feel it's introducing more confusion, sorry.

 

Ya, maybe not a good term. It just seems there was 'the other stuff' and then semi-permanent attachment of an LTS. And then you could do what we want (drop precision munitions without another aircraft designating) and I don't know if you say the ones capable of having an LTS mounted are a bombcat? Or the ones with the LTS only are a bombcat? If the latter then I guess you could turn a tomcat into a bombcat or a bombcat into a standard tomcat easily enough.

 

It may be splitting hairs - it just seems there were indeed A, B, and D bombcats and A, B, and D non-bombcats. I have no clear picture. Better today than yesterday though.

Edited March 4, 2015 by xaoslaad