StrongHarm Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 So, in this declassified vid of ordinance delivery to an ISIS compound by an F-22 (09/2014).. what I believe I'm seeing is this: One object breeching the roof very precisely in the center of the south wing Another object breeching the roof very precisely in the center of the north wing Both of these objects showing very little explosive effect.. maybe a little kinetic [*]Two more objects dropping very quickly through the holes made by the previous two objects!! .. [*]Only after the second set of objects breech the building do I see blast effects... Am I seeing this right? What IS THAT? :surprise: It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
AceRevo Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Thats not a strike from an F-22 X-55 profile for the F-15C
OutOnTheOP Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) So, in this declassified vid of ordinance delivery to an ISIS compound by an F-22 (09/2014).. what I believe I'm seeing is this: One object breeching the roof very precisely in the center of the south wing Another object breeching the roof very precisely in the center of the north wing Both of these objects showing very little explosive effect.. maybe a little kinetic [*]Two more objects dropping very quickly through the holes made by the previous two objects!! .. [*]Only after the second set of objects breech the building do I see blast effects... Am I seeing this right? What IS THAT? :surprise: Good question. First, it seems to me the third object does not in fact go through the hole of the first set; it looks to me like it hits slightly (a meter or two) short (right, from the perspective of the camera). If two GPS munitions were dropped on the exact same coordinates, that would be entirely possible Second, I'm not convinced that you ever actually see a detonation in there; it seems to me more like the camera simply flashes because it's being switched from narrow to wide field of view. As to WHAT it is, I *would* have said you were seeing a "blue bomb", but there's too much smoke for that. "Blue bombs" are simply inert practice bombs with a JDAM kit on them; they were found to work well in Iraq against buildings, because the buildings were largely concrete/ cinder block: the raw kinetic energy of the bomb would kick enough fragments of concrete into the interior of the building to have good effects on anyone inside, but it wouldn't hurt anyone outside with thrown debris that an explosive warhead would cause. The blue bombs were more than occasionally enough to collapse small buildings. With this clip, hard to say. It doesn't appear to show the entire strike: for one, the last bit shows a collapsed portion of the building on a corner, but I didn't see anything strike around that part of the building. I suppose it's possible that they were some kind of fuel-air explosive? If you were dropping several on the same MPI, it might be worth putting a detonator only on the last one, so that it ignites the fuel in one LARGE explosion instead of several small, sequential ones. Who knows? *edit* in the last seconds, you can clearly see the holes where the first pair hit. The camera is looking from the opposite side of the building from when they impacted. The entry holes are very CLOSE to each other, but definitely not through the same hole. Edited May 22, 2015 by OutOnTheOP
GGTharos Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 They're just delay fuzed. The bombs are set up to detonate as far down the road as possible. F-22's can carry SDBs and 2000lbs JDAMs. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
OutOnTheOP Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 They're just delay fuzed. The bombs are set up to detonate as far down the road as possible. F-22's can carry SDBs and 2000lbs JDAMs. Ok, but knowing a bit about weaponeering, I have to ask: WHY? You delay fuze to get penetration, but you only need fractions of a second against a building of that type of construction. Having a delay in the order of secondS (plural) accomplishes nothing but allowing your target to escape the area of lethal effect. Unless, of course, that was the point. Maybe civilians on the target?
StrongHarm Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 According to CentCom it is.. what do you know that I don't? Please elaborate. Thats not a strike from an F-22 It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
GGTharos Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Maybe they wanted to hit the basement. Anyone's guess. :) Ok, but knowing a bit about weaponeering, I have to ask: WHY? You delay fuze to get penetration, but you only need fractions of a second against a building of that type of construction. Having a delay in the order of secondS (plural) accomplishes nothing but allowing your target to escape the area of lethal effect. Unless, of course, that was the point. Maybe civilians on the target? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
StrongHarm Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) In addition.. I don't think those were 2k's.. 8k of 'typical' blast would have brought the building down even if the walls were 10m thick. Look closer at this vid and try not to dismiss this as routine.. at least humor me. Why did the overpressure push the blast out hundreds of meters through a relatively small breech but not destroy the other walls? A typical blast has abrupt, even, and intense pressure. Could it indeed be something like a FAB? Also, carefully consider the sequence of the drop.. south north, north south instead of two and two.. Also it looks like the blast doesn't occur until the moment the second pair of bombs hit. What would be the purpose of dropping impact bombs on top of delayed fuze bombs.. and is it at all possible to time their detonations perfectly as to not destroy one pair with the other? Typical bombs don't detonate with good effect when hit by other bombs... tends to interfere with even blast distribution, etc etc. Unless.. the first pair weren't typical bombs.. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing.. but take a moment to consider it before you dismiss it. It wouldn't be the first time we mortal civilians didn't know something about military technology. This comes from a civilian who used to be very close to that technology in the military. I know there are things I don't know. Ok, but knowing a bit about weaponeering, I have to ask: WHY? You delay fuze to get penetration, but you only need fractions of a second against a building of that type of construction. Having a delay in the order of secondS (plural) accomplishes nothing but allowing your target to escape the area of lethal effect. Unless, of course, that was the point. Maybe civilians on the target? Edited May 22, 2015 by StrongHarm It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
GGTharos Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Are FABs effective at all INSIDE buildings? I don't know, but I always thought they needed space to get the aerosol out there. I have seen them used against buildings but in that case they are dropped and detonated outside (next to and above ground) the building. In this case the fuel is also vaporized quickly. The F-22 doesn't carry that sort of weapon anyway AFAIK, and those tend to be quite large as well. Here's a BLU-109 test: This just demonstrates the delayed fuzing. GBU 39: The heavy smoke/dust cloud moves slowly, the bunker itself is left mostly intact. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
StrongHarm Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Very cool vid! I noticed in the other vid that there was a pretty long delay, and the detonation didn't occur until the second set of bombs impacted. That just seemed strange to me. When I said FAB I really meant FAB-like. Is it possible that the first set of bombs were some type of catalyst? I could buy the idea brought up by OutOnTheOP that the first pair were kinetic to weaken the structure. I don't think it's a pair of bunker busters followed by a pair of impact bombs... at least not that close together. Though!.. it would be kind of brilliant to have the proximity of the second pair trigger both pairs.. and the second pair goes off in the air.. a blast multiplier. That's interesting to consider. Edited May 22, 2015 by StrongHarm It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
GGTharos Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Israel practices something called 'Roof Knocking' where they'll drop a bomb without a warhead on the building to have people vacate it, because the real deal is coming within a few minutes. I don't see why they'd drop two bombs instead of one for this, unless it's to ensure that at least one makes it. The total number of weapons dropped here appears to be 3 (I see three entries, you can see two holes after the smoke has cleared plus one collapsed corner where the first bomb hit), and they all come quickly so I don't think this was roof-knocking. The impact angle has me believing it's either SDBs or other JDAMs, but with the building not collapsing I'm leaning towards SDBs. Also keep in mind that while the SDB has a small warhead, there's no reason why it couldn't cause secondaries depending on what's in the building. Edited May 22, 2015 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Backy 51 Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 GGT, I vote for SDB as well with emphasis on the small ... Israel practices something called 'Roof Knocking' where they'll drop a bomb without a warhead on the building to have people vacate it, because the real deal is coming within a few minutes. I don't see why they'd drop two bombs instead of one for this, unless it's to ensure that at least one makes it. The total number of weapons dropped here appears to be 3 (I see three entries, you can see two holes after the smoke has cleared plus one collapsed corner where the first bomb hit), and they all come quickly so I don't think this was roof-knocking. The impact angle has me believing it's either SDBs or other JDAMs, but with the building not collapsing I'm leaning towards SDBs. Also keep in mind that while the SDB has a small warhead, there's no reason why it couldn't cause secondaries depending on what's in the building. I don't need no stinkin' GPS! (except for PGMs :D) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
StrongHarm Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 So what's with the first pair not detonating until the second pair impacts? They could very well be SBDs, but that doesn't explain the fusing behavior of the two staggered pairs, does it? It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
Weta43 Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Thats not a strike from an F-22 My original version of this post was unhelpfully sarcastic... so... DoD Twitter says it was https://twitter.com/DeptofDefense/status/514432344917540864/photo/1 To the OP, there's quite a lot of discussion about that strike here : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94871&highlight=underground&page=69 Edited May 22, 2015 by Weta43 Cheers.
StrongHarm Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 I like the theory from that post that the first two bombs are extreme penetration to a deep underground facility. If the area of the underground facility was large enough, you would only see small plumes of dust from the building on the first pair. The second pair is simply for the above ground facility... I'm sure some of the previous posts in this thread were trying to say exactly that. :doh: Forgive my density on the matter.. Thanks Weta43 My original version of this post was unhelpfully sarcastic... so... DoD Twitter says it was https://twitter.com/DeptofDefense/status/514432344917540864/photo/1 To the OP, there's quite a lot of discussion about that strike here : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94871&highlight=underground&page=69 It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
tflash Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 A problem for interpreting the video is imho that it is a montage, there is a cesure at 00:11 onwards. I do not think this is one track. So making assumptions about number of hits and timing seems a bit tricky to me. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
StrongHarm Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 You can clearly see the bomb pairs splashing down in a single segment. The first pair gives a little puff of dust.. then the second pair impacts.. then the track is cut and you see the aftermath. So granted, you can't see the actual explosion from pair 2... and that makes it look odd. I'm a firm believer in the penetrating/non-penetrating pairs theory... as GGTharos said earlier in the thread. It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
Weta43 Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 yep, that was what we got to in 2014 too: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2188779&postcount=704 Wild theory - Although I heard it called a residential military compound on the TV, it looks more like a research facility to me (have a good look at that building - not fortified, but out on it's own, with a built up perimeter and a guardhouse on the gate). The kind of place that might have some underground facilities too (that provided the dirt to raise the whole site up), so maybe the first 2 are going deep into the ground (perhaps with a delay on the fuse), then the next two enter and explode in the surface part of the building. in which case BLU-109s make perfect sense. Cheers.
OutOnTheOP Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) cause secondaries depending on what's in the building. The more I think about it, the more I'm actually leaning toward that. Particularly considering that the pair that hits closer to the center of the building NEVER seems to detonate; there's no debris thrown from that portion of the building, aside from a bit of broken glass and the like from the kinetic impact. Entirely possible that they were all inert bombs, but struck something a little LESS inert in the one corner of the building, and *that* is what actually blew up. *edit* the underground facility theory isn't bad, either: ISIS is known to make extensive use of underground facilities for protection of leadership and munitions stocks. Still, underground detonations are typically accompanied by a significant heaving of the soil above.... Edited May 23, 2015 by OutOnTheOP
GGTharos Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 You might not get much heaving if it's an SDB though. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
pyromaniac4002 Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Why on earth would they be dropping inert bombs in a warzone? To me, it seems apparent that they're SDBs. Being that they're only 250 lb bombs and this is a big building, they used four of them. The first two took out the bottom floors, the last two the top. We're so used to seeing 2,000 lb bombs in these types of "guided bomb hitting a building" videos, we don't have a good grasp on what a bomb roughly a tenth of that size should look like, especially against a large compound like this.
OutOnTheOP Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Why on earth would they be dropping inert bombs in a warzone? To me, it seems apparent that they're SDBs. Being that they're only 250 lb bombs and this is a big building, they used four of them. The first two took out the bottom floors, the last two the top. We're so used to seeing 2,000 lb bombs in these types of "guided bomb hitting a building" videos, we don't have a good grasp on what a bomb roughly a tenth of that size should look like, especially against a large compound like this. Having personally seen the effects of 500-lb class weapons, 98-lb 155 projectiles, 39-lb 120mm mortar, and hellfire (mind you, not sure which warhead it had on board), I would wager that NONE of those were SDB. The blast in the corner was more on line with the effects I've witnessed from a 500-lb, and the pair in the center had less effect than even the Hellfires (lightest warhead of the bunch). Granted, if they'd been deep underground.... But that, then begs the question "if deep penetration were the goal, why would you use the lightest, lowest sectional density weapon you have available?". Not having looked up the penetration characteristics of the SDB, I'd guess they are significantly worse than the GBU38. As to why you would drop inert warheads, that's already been explained. ...and if you don't think that a 20+ inch wide projectile screaming through a concrete roof at supersonic or near-supersonic speed is sufficient to kill or maim everybody in the room, you should probably read up on spalling and APFSDS kill mechanisms. I will admit that the primary reason to use inert warheads doesn't seem to be present in this case: there's no immediately adjacent buildings that you have to worry about collateral effects on. Edited May 23, 2015 by OutOnTheOP
mvsgas Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) They only made 160 or so, but the F/A-22 is solid and will return into production again the plane is F/A class meaning it can drop bombs and or be air to air. The F/A designation was briefly used when USAF was asking for the number of F-22 to be increase. It was reverted back to F-22 when the number did not change. As for the video, it would be impossible to determine what weapon it was. Some notes; BLU-109, BLU-117 and other penetrating bombs only have about 500lbs of explosives. The bombs are on the 2k lbs class because the casing is so thick it make the bomb that heavy. Additionally, delayed fuzing is common in aviation bombs. The delay is not only seconds but also for hundreds to thousands of a second. This is depending on the fuze use, which are many. Edited May 23, 2015 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
pyromaniac4002 Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Having personally seen the effects of 500-lb class weapons, 98-lb 155 projectiles, 39-lb 120mm mortar, and hellfire (mind you, not sure which warhead it had on board), I would wager that NONE of those were SDB. The blast in the corner was more on line with the effects I've witnessed from a 500-lb, and the pair in the center had less effect than even the Hellfires (lightest warhead of the bunch). Granted, if they'd been deep underground.... But that, then begs the question "if deep penetration were the goal, why would you use the lightest, lowest sectional density weapon you have available?". Not having looked up the penetration characteristics of the SDB, I'd guess they are significantly worse than the GBU38. As to why you would drop inert warheads, that's already been explained. ...and if you don't think that a 20+ inch wide projectile screaming through a concrete roof at supersonic or near-supersonic speed is sufficient to kill or maim everybody in the room, you should probably read up on spalling and APFSDS kill mechanisms. I will admit that the primary reason to use inert warheads doesn't seem to be present in this case: there's no immediately adjacent buildings that you have to worry about collateral effects on. SDB was designed from the outset as a high-penetrating weapon. High precision + high penetration (i.e., get it closer to your target of interest) + low explosive content = minimal collateral damage. GBU-38 is just a GPS kit on a regular Mk-82 dumb bomb, meaning it has no added penetrating ability beyond the most run-of-the-mill bomb in the inventory today. Another damn good reason to think these are SDBs is the fact that they were dropped by an F-22. It's SDBs or 2,000 lb JDAMs, and considering the environment consists of lots of light targets spread out, sometimes in close proximity to civilians, there's basically no choice at all. You go with the SDB and you have the flexibility to hit a target next to civilians without harming them, or you can drop a bunch of them and take out a large building like we see here. No kidding dropping an inert bomb in the middle of a room would most likely kill everyone in it.. That's not the point. There's no reason at all to use inert bombs here, I've never heard of US forces dropping inert bombs on actual enemy targets ever, and this video gives no evidence that screams "inert bomb." Besides that, the idea of these strikes is to destroy the terrorists AND their equipment and an inert round would be decidedly less effective at the latter. And finally, the target here is ISIS, some of the most incredibly savage pieces of human filth on the planet. I'll wager the general consensus among the coalition forces dropping these bombs is for live rather than inert. Edited May 23, 2015 by pyromaniac4002
Emu Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 (edited) They're just delay fuzed. The bombs are set up to detonate as far down the road as possible. F-22's can carry SDBs and 2000lbs JDAMs. Only 1,000lb bombs I thought. There was a USAF picture that mentioned a Mk84, but it was incorrectly labelled because the bomb was the wrong shape/size for a 2,000lber. http://www.nellis.af.mil/photos/mediagallery.asp?galleryID=1556&page=50 http://fineartamerica.com/featured/weapons-loaders-load-a-gbu-32-jdam-high-g-productions.html Long discussion on it here: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26410&start=15 http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=26410&start=45#wrapper 1. The F-22 cannot fit a 2k ANYTHING internally (I don't know if it's a size or weight/g limit) 2. By looking at the JDAM and comparing gap ratios and nose shapre, it's clearly a 1k JDAM. GGT, I vote for SDB as well with emphasis on the small ... They looked too big for SDBs. I'm going for 2 GBU-32s on each side. BLU-110 GBU-32s, one delayed action (or inert?), one impact or less delayed. http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/General-Purpose-Bombs.html Mk 83 and BLU-110B/B: The Mk 83 is a streamlined steel bomb casing containing 445 lbs of Tritonal high explosive. When filled with PBXN-109 thermally insensitive explosives, the bomb is designated BLU-110. The BLU-110B/B is a 1,000-pound class general purpose bomb. It has a relatively thin bomb case that is streamlined to reduce aerodynamic drag. The bomb produces blast and fragmentation effects and can be used as either an unguided, high or low drag weapon. When used with a guidance kit, it can be employed as a precision guided bomb. The Mk 83/BLU-110B/B warhead is used with the GBU-16 Paveway II laser guided bombs and the GBU-32 JDAM. The BLU-110B/B can also be fuzed with proximity, instantaneous or delayed fuzes to provide a variety of military effects. Increased funding to fill new stockpile and meet pilot training objectives for fielding of the F-22 Raptor. Sources seem to confirm: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pages/2014/September%202014/September%2024%202014/F-22s%27-First-Action.aspx http://aviationweek.com/blog/was-lackluster-f-22-debut?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20140925_AW-05_987&YM_RID=%27email%27&YM_MID=%27mmid%27&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_5 A defense official now confirms that the F-22 used in this historic strike employed a GBU-32, a 1,000 lb. Joint Direct Attack Munition. Edited May 24, 2015 by Emu
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