Primary/Realistic Weapon for MBT's

[Ultra]

This has been somewhat talked about in other threads, but I guess I'm looking for a more definitive answer.

 

What is the primary or most common weapon used for engaging heavy tanks with the SU-25A?

[pepin1234]

S-8, S-24, S-25 rockets. The S-8 rockets is more common because is used against different targets, like infantry targets and MBT armors.

 

in DCS For S-8 rocket you need to do a dive above the MBT to hit the top and rear parts. you need training and then you can hit multiple units at a pass.

 

S-8 rocket bombing by Mig-29 in Syria

 

Edited May 28, 2015 by pepin1234

[Weta43]

The basic version of the aircraft was produced at Factory 31, at Tbilisi, in the Soviet Republic of Georgia. Between 1978 and 1989, 582 single-seat Su-25s were produced in Georgia, not including aircraft produced under the Su-25K export program. This variant of the aircraft represents the backbone of the Russian Air Force's Su-25 fleet, currently the largest in the world.[7] The aircraft experienced a number of accidents in operational service caused by system failures attributed to salvo firing of weapons. In the wake of these incidents, use of its main armament, the 240 mm S-24 rocket, was prohibited. In its place, the FAB-500 500 kg general-purpose high-explosive bomb became the primary armament

 

An S-24 will mess up an MBT*.

 

In all the wars it's been used in, it's flown massive numbers of sorties for relatively few losses, and hardly used guided weapons at all...

 

(*for that matter so will an S-13, or a FAB-500)

Edited May 28, 2015 by Weta43

[whitehot]

S-8, S-24, S-25 rockets. The S-8 rockets is more common because is used against different targets, like infantry targets and MBT armors.

 

in DCS For S-8 rocket you need to do a dive above the MBT to hit the top and rear parts. you need training and then you can hit multiple units at a pass.

 

S-8 rocket bombing by Mig-29 in Syria

 

 

very nice

[Ultra]

Thanks guys, that's helpful.

So it seems like there are a bunch of weapons that are used.

 

Between the S-8, S-13, S-24, S-25, and FAB-500 which do you think the Russians would use today if a general said "we need you to go out and kill these tanks" (assuming they're modern tanks)?

[GGTharos]

Realistically, they'd use nukes. Frogfoots aren't really made for attacking tanks, but they can do the job if necessary.

 

The weapon you use depends very heavily on factors that are probably just not modeled in DCS for the most part.

 

For one, rockets might not do a lot of damage to tanks, or at least, not to a lot of them. Same thing with bombs. I know people like to 'bomb snipe' and 'rocket snipe' in DCS, but you're getting time on target that real people probably just won't.

 

If you can call in dedicated anti-armor assets, that's a better solution usually.

[Ultra]

Realistically, they'd use nukes

 

:lol: nice one

 

Ok, let me change the situation a little. Same question but during the 1980's

[GGTharos]

Pretty much same answer ... Su-25's aren't really anti-armor assets, you can just sort of make them work that way. Carpet places with bombs, use your anti-armor cluster munitions etc.

 

They would probably be more effective against light armor, and not as effective against heavy armor.

 

Contrast with the A-10A and it's ability to haul 6 accurate anti-armor missiles, guaranteeing something like 3-4 kills per attack (if the A-10 survives that long).

 

By comparison, the Su-25 might be able to guarantee you something like a couple mission kills for that same sortie, if they can precisely put weapons on target.

 

Naturally combat conditions affect all of that (eg if a frog loaded with bombs finds some tightly parked tanks, just carped that and you do a lot of damage!) , but I think you get the idea. :)

[Ultra]

Ok, but don't you think the soviets would use the SU-25 against tanks, as well as their more specialized aircraft, in a full scale 1980's war with the West. I would think they would use everything they had (assuming nuclear deterrent). I'm wondering what they would specifically load for tank killing if they needed to.

 

Also, what were the Soviet anti-tank aircraft of the 1980's?

[GGTharos]

They were helicopters AFAIK.

 

As for weapons - anti-armor cluster munitions sound like a thing :)

[Ultra]

Sounds good to me :)

So it sounds like the consensus is they would probably use any cheap and dumb munitions they have that make a big enough boom, nothing specific.

[GGTharos]

I think the suggestion of the rockets was not bad, some of them come in anti-armor flavor too. They're just not very accurate.

[Ultra]

If I had to guess, I would personally think the FAB-500 would be used a lot. The Russians seem to use those for everything.

[Agiel7]

It's said that an unguided bomb a la the Mk. 82 landing anywhere more than 15 feet away from a T-62 like target would cause a pretty major case of tinnitus for the crew, but otherwise leave the tank in a pretty much useable state.

[pepin1234]

In real life with S-8 rockets is easy to kill MBT than in DCS. Do you think a war ship gone be sunken with one or two anti-ship missiles? Most probably not... So is the same with the rocket and Su-25 against MBT. Systems, sensors, engine damage means the unit is out of the Batterfield.

 

With nuke... Yes all is possible when they want to terminate fast, but saying that they gone use nuke because the Su-25 is not an anti armor is an absurdity.

 

Also saying that the Rocket are not accurate for MBT is a non sense. See again the video and you will see how good is the accuracy of the Rockets attack. They hit exactly where the pilot want.

Edited May 28, 2015 by pepin1234

[Ultra]

It's said that an unguided bomb a la the Mk. 82 landing anywhere more than 15 feet away from a T-62 like target would cause a pretty major case of tinnitus for the crew, but otherwise leave the tank in a pretty much useable state.

 

That would seem true for most unguided munitions. I would think almost direct hits are required.

 

Maybe another reason to use cluster munitions?

[GGTharos]

You have to hit with those rockets first. Yes, I saw the video. Realize that rockets are unguided, and it takes very few mistakes to miss. The rockets themselves may happily not impact where you want them to - everything depends on release parameters.

In a real battlefield you just might not have the luxury of lining up your attack as accurately as you might want to. We saw this type of things in all sorts of RL scenarios, including Afganistan.

 

And BTW, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say they'd use nukes because Su-25's are not dedicated anti-armor assets, I said they'd use nukes because that's exactly what Russia was going to do: Use nukes.

 

In real life with S-8 rockets is easy to kill MBT than in DCS. Do you think a war ship gone be sunken with one or two anti-ship missiles? Most probably not... So is the same with the rocket and Su-25 against MBT. Systems, sensors, engine damage means the unit is out of the Batterfield.

 

With nuke... Yes all is possible when they want to terminate fast, but saying that they gone use nuke because the Su-25 is not an anti armor is an absurdity.

 

Also saying that the Rocket are not accurate for MBT is a non sense. See again the video and you will see how good is the accuracy of the Rockets attack. They hit exactly where the pilot want.

[pepin1234]

And BTW, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say they'd use nukes because Su-25's are not dedicated anti-armor assets, I said they'd use nukes because that's exactly what Russia was going to do: Use nukes.

 

Excuse me...? When you answer in a thread in the Su-25A forum that:

 

Realistically, they'd use nukes. Frogfoots aren't really made for attacking tanks, but they can do the job if necessary.

 

The weapon you use depends very heavily on factors that are probably just not modeled in DCS for the most part.

 

For one, rockets might not do a lot of damage to tanks, or at least, not to a lot of them. Same thing with bombs. I know people like to 'bomb snipe' and 'rocket snipe' in DCS, but you're getting time on target that real people probably just won't.

 

If you can call in dedicated anti-armor assets, that's a better solution usually.

 

where the main question of the thread is what is the real weapon of the Su-25A to use against MBT... Come on...

You know very well that to use nuclear weapons should be a very important reason and of course this don't gone be the Su-25 can't do the job. If the condition of the Batterfield don't allow a dive, then the low flight is possible but then they should increase the amount of S-8 rocket to use because the angle.

 

In this scenery The risk is less than flying targeting from a radio of 20 km where the Pantsir is awaiting using only trk radar or optical sensors.

[Ce_Zeta]

Well, interesting debate.

 

As GGTharos said, the Gratch wasn't designed to destroy MBTs. For this purpose, the soviet army have numerical superiority and other air assets.

 

But brotha, the use of tactical nuclear weapons surely will be avoided by the soviets because in Europe they had numerical superiority. Thousands of MBTs, Choppers and infantry divisions. The frontal aviation was designed to support the ground forces in Close Air Support, interdiction..This advantage will be lost if they use tactical nuclear weapons in the first place.

 

If the Soviets started the war, NATO forces would use the FOFA (Follow-On Forces attack) missions and close air support with conventional weapons too.

 

In my opinion only when one of the contenders would be on the brink of a military collapse, the order of use nuclear tactical weapons would be released.

 

But, the best choice for destroy MBTs is the Sujoi Su-25T (T for tankovyi, Antitank). :D

 

Finally, answering the question, IMO S-24, S25L and FAB-500 are the best weapons for our lovely Gratch versus MBTs. But always the choice depends on the context of the fight.

[pepin1234]

Actually I am not very sure what is the russian CAS fixed wing for anti-tank task. They have the Su-25SM and the Su-25UBM still in developing, left the targeting pod and the ant-tank missile. The missile should be the air version of the Pantsir missile, the Hermes-A. "Supposed still in developing"

Edited May 31, 2015 by pepin1234

[Ce_Zeta]

The SM is deployed ATM. They have at least 50 aircrafts upgraded to the SM standard.

 

P.S. the upgrade still in development is the SM3.

 

Edited May 31, 2015 by Ce_Zeta

[pepin1234]

Yes, maybe for the next upgrade SM4 come with the Hermes-A missile and more advanced weapons

Edited May 31, 2015 by pepin1234

[steve65]

Yes, maybe for the next upgrade SM4 come with the Hermes-A missile and more advanced weapons

 

OR maybe ED will upgrade the su-25A to su-25sm standards.:music_whistling:

[pepin1234]

OR maybe ED will upgrade the su-25A to su-25sm standards.:music_whistling:

 

I don't believe that going to happen.

[Weta43]

Be quite nice if it did though - Full DCS.Su-25SM ...