Missiles useless in version 1.12a?

[Dudikoff]

To be more precice, the E-E debacle showed us that R-27 can't hit squat. HOWEVER ... this may not be a problem with the missile itself, but with the fact that most of the existing R-27's are decades old war-stock which may or may not have been properly stored and reconditioned.

 

It doesn't make any sense to me that the Russians would introduce in service for their primary fighters a missile which can't hit its intended target. If the Iraqi-mantained, much older and also SARH guided AA-6 missile (unless it used IR-guided one which I doubt since it has noticebly shorter range) managed to hit an F/A-18C, it would make sense that the Alamo should at least be able to do the same.

[GGTharos]

Actually it was IR guided, and apparently it wasn't fire from too far out either. It's a mach 5 missiles so any claims of 'shorter range' are ... probably a little disproportionate. That missile's problem is that it's not a good turner - it's emant to run down enemy aircraft, or at least get tot hem very, very quickly, more or less in a straight line.

 

And, as far as 'making sense' goes, originally missiles had less than 10% Pk. So yeah, it might make sense if the Pk wasreasonable by the standards back then. There is also the possibility that the opposition, having used the exact same weapons, knew exactly how to evade them as well, an effect which we readily see in LOMAC.

[D-Scythe]

Cool any official reports on this? Where can I find these reports? Are these reports written by UN or USA officials? If so where can they be reached?

 

They are probably based on the R-27's performance in Ethiopia/Eritrea...if you want to dispute this, be my guest, don't drag me into this :p

 

Anyway, I'm actually quite happy about the way radar missiles are modelled relatively to each other, although their performance relative to their targets and their decoys are a bigger problem, IMO.

 

To the AIM-120 vs. R-77 debate, well, you don't really need to have any hard data to arrive at the conclusion that the AIM-120 has a better seeker. I am NOT saying this is the case IRL, cause as people have pointed out, there is no hard data, but there are a number of facts that strongly support this position that the AIM-120 is smarter and can see better than the R-77. For example:

1. The R-77 was developed in the same timeframe as the AIM-120A, not the current AIM-120B and AIM-120C/D
   
2. The AIM-120 is *much* better funded than the R-77, with constant upgrades to the guidance section
   
3. Hughes, who originally developed AMRAAM, have produced the AIM-54 before that, probably the first effective active radar missile. The Russians produced...what prior active radar missile? Hmm, with no prior experience, plus the fact that Russian radar technology does lag slightly behind the U.S.'s (nobody have a cow, the U.S. lags behind the Russians in other fields I'm sure), and you can see why it is widely believed by a lot of people that the AIM-120 has a better seeker.

 

Besides, Kenan said SARH missiles.

 

Wow, this thread jumped a few pages while I was typing this out.

 

As for the E-E conflict, have you ever thought about the fact that it was a real life-at-stake Air to Air engagement? Would the pilots wait for the "perfect" range to fire those missiles, or would it just be, first sight/LA launch, regardless of the 'perfect' range? I'm sure they didn't want to calculate and take any chances so it's quite possible there was lots of missile spamming out there, just to drive off the enemy.

 

The same could be said of all the times the AIM-120 has been launched in combat, all the AIM-7s, etc. Missiles not being fired in optimal conditions is a reality of combat.

[Pilotasso]

Um, the immediate follow-up kills were done with R-73's ... yeah, I think they did what they could to get into 'perfect' range, esp. considering most of their opponents were poorly armed MiG-29A's.

 

Actualy the Eritrean Migs were armed with R-27's as well. They fired some themselves too. They all missed. Dunno if it was the Missile to blaim or the migs poor radar.

[Pilotasso]

Well, the fact is, it still takes a lot more skill in LOCKON to make a kill with SARH R27 then to do the same with AIM120 or R77. Modelled as ueber missile or not, I'm quite proud to score a kill like that, and not do a hit and run with Amraam/Adder or even ET.

 

I disagree with this. While you can maddog an AMRAAM and an ET (hmmm) if you adopt the tactics you can still have a better kill rate.

 

This game gives the R-27 very good perfomance. I dont dispute the excelent R-27's standoff range wich is a well known fact. But its seeker performs good enough to take advantage of it. If you know how to use it you will be able to outshoot AMRAAM's getting kills even before your oponents get an R-77 or an AMRAAM off.

 

Its all about tactics. I got many upsets with the ET but I still use other missiles to better efect than the ET.

[tomcat1974]

Why nobody think of the main thing there .. the mens in E-E.. Russian vs Ukrainians Pilots.. Both sides had relativelly same type of weapons (god knows how it was stored/smashed/hit by car - is not that the africans are well known for theire carefull procedures). Both sides had same thype of Radar. Both side knew who is the adversary. Both sides knew what are their technical capabilities in BVR. Both sides knew what to do in order to deny the launch of R-27 in their best parameters.. Everything ended in a close fight where the first who made a mistake was dead... that's it..

 

regarding AIM-7 initial performace.. Was due to many cases by missile malfunctioning due to very sensitive to shocks of the gyro units of the guidance unit. Moisture/landing -take of Cycles/sensitive tube electronics took their toll...

[Kenan]

If you know how to use it you will be able to outshoot AMRAAM's getting kills even before your oponents get an R-77 or an AMRAAM off.

 

R27ER/EM has a 75/110km maximum range, so it's quite normal for it to outshoot both Aim120 and R77 (50km). The only way one can really profit from it's long burn, is by firing it in HOJ mod, which still has a fairly low hit probabilty, not to mention standard situations in which you can forget about hitting anything if you fired at it from the range greater then 30km.

 

The undenieable fact still remains:

 

Flanker pilots using R27ER's do have to keep their lock untill the end and thus expose themselves to a greater risk.

 

Eagle and Mig29S pilots don't have to with their ARH missiles.

 

So, in my book, guy with 50 R27ER kills deservers a lot more praise then the guy with say 50 AIM120/R77/ET maddog kills.

 

Simple as that.

[Ardillita]

Well, ys, misiles efectiveness has been "downgraded", but once you pracxtice more, and read some information about misiles envelopes and some theory, you will notice that before the downgrade, the missiles may be had too much efectiveness (always my opinion of course). I read an interesting book "oder fighter tactics (or manouvers or something like this, don´t remember) EXCELLENT book, witch fighting technics. A couple of chapter were dedicated to the radar, misilles and all working together, with examples an coments about the R27 series, also about the 120 ammran. After reading all that information and decided to test it in the sim... SURPRISE (I said surprise because I didn´t think ED would have simulated things good enough to make this information to be aplied and to work, real information from real pilots and real sources, not the phantom sources from ED). But it worked, the efectiveness rised again for me

I would advise every pilot to read some tech info about combat technics and combat skills, it works :)