SU-35/37 and F-22........

[NY3D]

I have been doing a little bit of research(Im not a technician)on these modern fighters that fly our skies today.I went to Patricks Aviation Website and down loaded all videos on these 2 aircrafts.I also found aditional info that was very usefull.I came to the conclusion that the su-35/37 superb fighters, I have never seen any aircraft maneuver like this.With the right pilot this bird can do some serious damage.If you get a chance please check out these videos,they demonstrate what these fighter aircrafts are capable of.The F-22 can really maneuver nicely,the stealth technology doesnt hurt either,however for $200 million a piece aircraft that is only designed for the "Air superiority" role,i think its too high,at one time it underwent testing with the JDAMM (or something like that.)for ground attacks,but it was never incorporated in the final design.I love both aircrafts and it would be a hard choice to make if i was to decide how to arm my air forces.BTW...how much does a SU-35/37 cost ??.....They wont be on E-bay so dont bother...LOL

[AKA44]

how much does a SU-35/37 cost ??

They were prototype; the Su-30MKI cost to India 35$ per unit.

[nscode]

that is $ E+6 :)

[JaBoG32_Prinzartus]

Although I also love the Russian birds, I'd say when it comes to AIR-Superiority the biggest advantage of the F-22 are its engines! Supercruise and the topspeed is worth a lot.

 

Thr SU-s maneuverabiltiy might be good for Air-Shows, and stall-recoveries, and maybe a knife-fight, but when it comes to air dominance, I'd bet on the F22.

 

According to some people the F22 just did not show its vectore-thrust capabilities to the full extend, so maybe it can maneuver similar to the SU. I don't know.

[Pilotasso]

Having powerfull engines is excellent, but what will kill you is the AMRAAM going active without any previous clue the enemy was out there. It will take hell to get close into the F-22 for it to need show its manueverability capability.

 

As for the Su-35, there are not operational aircraft with a definitve standard (because they built Su-35's already but their config is not the same as the latest proposals) though the russians do have blue prints for it, but just not any clients to go arround to start building these.

 

The most powerfull Russian fighter yet is indeed the Su-30MKI wich has several common items to the Su-35 and is certainly as advanced as the 35 in most respects. Its main difficulties against the F-22 would be to know where it is firts to start shooting. This is where IMHO the F-22 is yet to be supassed.

Anything else, that flanker armed with up to 8 R-77's among other missiles will probably give alot of headaches to its oponents.

[GGTharos]

It can know where to start shooting and it won't matter. In a declassified USAF document it was made pretty clear that the AMRAAM would have very limited capability against stealth aircraft ... the R77 won't be doing any better.

 

And before anyone jumps on the 'how do you know' bandwagon, consider that the 120 had much more development time, costs, and most of all, they both use the same principles and physics of operation, no magic involved ;)

[britgliderpilot]

It can know where to start shooting and it won't matter. In a declassified USAF document it was made pretty clear that the AMRAAM would have very limited capability against stealth aircraft ... the R77 won't be doing any better.

 

And before anyone jumps on the 'how do you know' bandwagon, consider that the 120 had much more development time, costs, and most of all, they both use the same principles and physics of operation, no magic involved ;)

 

It won't know where to start shooting, so perhaps that wording's slightly misleading . . . .

 

 

Anyone got a grammar nazi badge?

[GGTharos]

Did I confuse you somehow?

[britgliderpilot]

Did I confuse you somehow?

 

No, I knew what you meant - but writing "it can know where to start shooting" could be taken to mean that . . . . well, it CAN know where to start shooting.

 

Pretty much nothing facing a Raptor (with the possible exception of anything on the same datalink) is going to be able to see it at any point before disintegrating into a thinly dispersed cloud of hair, teeth, and eyeballs. Which of course we both know, but someone else reading that sentence might not.

[TucksonSonny]

 

The most powerfull Russian fighter yet is indeed the Su-30MKI

 

Do you really think that an export fighter jet is the most powerful Russian fighter?

Do you realize that a downgrade was done with the engines and radar range and also on the export R-77 version?

[suntrace1]

200 milion F-22 / 35 milion Su-30 = 1 F22 vs. 6 Su-30

 

That's a lot of Sukhois, even for F-22. I still belive into ''bang-for-the-buck''. Here's a great article on Aviapedia's site:

 

http://www.aviapedia.com/news/f-22-is-a-big-mistake-20060522

[britgliderpilot]

200 milion F-22 / 35 milion Su-30 = 1 F22 vs. 6 Su-30

 

That's a lot of Sukhois, even for F-22. I still belive into ''bang-for-the-buck''. Here's a great article on Aviapedia's site:

 

http://www.aviapedia.com/news/f-22-is-a-big-mistake-20060522

 

Yes, it is - but it's a different requirement.

 

A Sukhoi will perform well NOW, against aircraft of today's generation.

 

 

A Raptor will kill anything else currently in the sky without breaking a sweat, and continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I don't know of any aircraft currently in development that could compare to the capabilities of the Raptor and the integrated USAF machine.

 

Unit cost would have been cheaper if the full complement of aircraft (as required in the foreseen Cold War worldview) had been required - R&D has now been split over an ever-decreasing number of aircraft.

 

The majority of Sukhoi's R&D has come from government funding over the years ;)

[Pilotasso]

...and the Raptor is made to win, pretty much at any cost and pretty much as more definitive as possible. Its not there to win a money loss contest.

[GGTharos]

A Raptor can carry 6 120's internally. That means your 6 Su-35's won't be going far ... especially if you consider that for each raptor, there's 4 F-15C and 4 F-16 sitting around with AMRAAMs just waiting to mop up your thinned out pack .. not to mention F-35's.

 

This whole 'I can buy 6 Su-35's for one raptor' means NOTHING unless the Raptor was the ONLY bird out there. Once it whips your advanced fighters, it'll go home, reload, while the previous generation's quite capable jets mop up whatever the Raptor left for'em. Like a shark feeding frenzy, really.

[TucksonSonny]

A Raptor can carry 6 120's internally. That means your 6 Su-35's won't be going far ... especially if you consider that for each raptor, there's 4 F-15C and 4 F-16 sitting around with AMRAAMs just waiting to mop up your thinned out pack .. not to mention F-35's.

 

This whole 'I can buy 6 Su-35's for one raptor' means NOTHING unless the Raptor was the ONLY bird out there. Once it whips your advanced fighters, it'll go home, reload, while the previous generation's quite capable jets mop up whatever the Raptor left for'em. Like a shark feeding frenzy, really.

 

Uuh, 4 F-15C and 4 F-16 sitting around with AMRAAMs .. not to mention F-35's!

Do I feel somehow that you somehow have not the confidence that the F-22 will do his job maybe?

 

Do you think that 6 fighter jets will wait 1 for 1 together for being killed? Of course not, the first will play bait (with radar on), the other 5 will sneak/ lurk and search for your six with datalink on and radar off fire HOJ and ET’s (the F-22 his worst nightmare).

 

BTW In RL you can not cry kind of like that superbug was not following the rules of engagements.

[GGTharos]

Uuh, 4 F-15C and 4 F-16 sitting around with AMRAAMs .. not to mention F-35's!

Do I feel somehow that you somehow have not the confidence that the F-22 will do his job maybe?

No, just bringing some realism to the discussion ;)

 

Do you think that 6 fighter jets will wait 1 for 1 together for being killed? Of course not, the first will play bait (with radar on), the other 5 will sneak/ lurk and search for your six with datalink on and radar off fire HOJ and ET’s (the F-22 his worst nightmare).

I'm sorry. Sneak in and lurk and search for ... stealth aircraft? :D AHAHAHAHAH!

 

HoJ fire? Against stealth aircraft? ET's? Ahahah :D

So your assumption here are what ...

 

Raptors have no AWACS

Raptors have no datalink

Raptors uh, have no radar?

Raptor pilots are apparently -really- easy to fool!

ET's the duh wunderbar!!!

 

What are you smoking? I want some!

 

BTW In RL you can not cry kind of like that superbug was not following the rules of engagements.

No, but you sure will be crying when those Sues explode on the ground after a several-thousand foot dive as a result of being AMRAAMed ;D

 

Get it straight:

 

The Raptor will be the one playing baiting games, and only if really needs to, which leads to point two ;)

The Raptor will know where you are, before you know where it is

The Raptor will be the one sneaking in

The Raptor will be the one taking the first shot and killing all your planes.

 

;)

[TucksonSonny]

No, just bringing some realism to the discussion ;)

 

 

I'm sorry. Sneak in and lurk and search for ... stealth aircraft? :D AHAHAHAHAH!

 

HoJ fire? Against stealth aircraft? ET's? Ahahah :D

So your assumption here are what ...

 

Raptors have no AWACS

Raptors have no datalink

Raptors uh, have no radar?

Raptor pilots are apparently -really- easy to fool!

ET's the duh wunderbar!!!

 

What are you smoking? I want some!

 

 

No, but you sure will be crying when those Sues explode on the ground after a several-thousand foot dive as a result of being AMRAAMed ;D

 

Get it straight:

 

The Raptor will be the one playing baiting games, and only if really needs to, which leads to point two ;)

The Raptor will know where you are, before you know where it is

The Raptor will be the one sneaking in

The Raptor will be the one taking the first shot and killing all your planes.

 

;)

 

A 120 kill ratio of 6/0 is what you call realism?

 

BTW, If the 22 put his radar on and opens his door bays for firing the 120’s then it is vulnerable to HOJ or not?

(And Yes the 22 will use his jammer to cover this action)

 

BTW,

With 6 bandits you have:

1 on your 6

1 on your 8

1 on your 10

1 on your 12

1 on your 2

1 on your 4

[GGTharos]

A 120 kill ratio of 6/0 is what you call realism?

 

BTW, If the 22 put his radar on and opens his door bays for firing the 120’s then it is vulnerable to HOJ or not?

Uh ... no? HoJ is 'home on Jam' ... the name should be self-explanatory. You launch HoJ on aircraft that are operating a jammer.

And to see a flash of an RCS spike of the bay doors being opened, IF INDEED YOU COULD by geometry, you'd have to a) have your radar guing all the time

b) possibly reject the target as a false target as it may appear on one sweep if the sweep catches the 22 RIGHT as it's opening the bay, and it would dissapear on the next sweep.

 

 

BTW,

With 6 bandits you have:

1 on your 6

1 on your 8

1 on your 10

1 on your 12

1 on your 2

1 on your 4

Which brings me to my next point.

 

Kids, don't do drugs.

 

 

When the heck are those figherts going to get there? ;) Half or more of them will be shot down before they get anywhere near the 22, assuming they even have a clue whereit actually is. It's very smart to launch, then displace ... and it will happily attack /all/ your aircraft at once - AESA radars don't have 'target proximity' limitations.

 

Anything that comes through will have to deal with AIM-9X and gun, and I'll guarantee you right now that no amount of decoys or airshow stunts will save your plane from the 9X.

 

The R-73/74 will be a threat to the 22 at this point, but not as big a threat as the 9X is to the 35's!

 

Especially since they're quite likely just coming out of the defensive, and quite likely don't really know where the 22 is.

 

Being stealth confers an /enormous/ advantage. ENORMOUS. It can't even be stressed enough.

 

As for R-27ET's ... AHAHAH :D In real life, those things eat flares like little kids eat chocolate. That's if you know where to shoot'em in the first place anyway.

 

Perhaps you haven't heard this enough:

 

R-27T/ET's are for use against rapidly receding aircraft beyond the 73's reach, or for aircraft which you cannot attack with a radar guided missile due to jamming (Like B52's). They're not actually so great at all against anything else ;) They're 'the backup plan', not your first choice ... never mind how they behave in LOMAC.

[TucksonSonny]

Uh ... no? HoJ is 'home on Jam' ... the name should be self-explanatory. You launch HoJ on aircraft that are operating a jammer.

And to see a flash of an RCS spike of the bay doors being opened, IF INDEED YOU COULD by geometry, you'd have to a) have your radar guing all the time

b) possibly reject the target as a false target as it may appear on one sweep if the sweep catches the 22 RIGHT as it's opening the bay, and it would dissapear on the next sweep.

 

 

 

Which brings me to my next point.

 

Kids, don't do drugs.

 

 

When the heck are those figherts going to get there? ;) Half or more of them will be shot down before they get anywhere near the 22, assuming they even have a clue whereit actually is. It's very smart to launch, then displace ... and it will happily attack /all/ your aircraft at once - AESA radars don't have 'target proximity' limitations.

 

Anything that comes through will have to deal with AIM-9X and gun, and I'll guarantee you right now that no amount of decoys or airshow stunts will save your plane from the 9X.

 

The R-73/74 will be a threat to the 22 at this point, but not as big a threat as the 9X is to the 35's!

 

Especially since they're quite likely just coming out of the defensive, and quite likely don't really know where the 22 is.

 

Being stealth confers an /enormous/ advantage. ENORMOUS. It can't even be stressed enough.

 

As for R-27ET's ... AHAHAH :D In real life, those things eat flares like little kids eat chocolate. That's if you know where to shoot'em in the first place anyway.

 

Perhaps you haven't heard this enough:

 

R-27T/ET's are for use against rapidly receding aircraft beyond the 73's reach, or for aircraft which you cannot attack with a radar guided missile due to jamming (Like B52's). They're not actually so great at all against anything else ;) They're 'the backup plan', not your first choice ... never mind how they behave in LOMAC.

 

Ooh, now you are throwing in a B52 in our 6 versus 1 engagement (still don’t believe that the 22 will do his job).

 

1) About the 22: it has a huge powerful jammer! Nice bait for HOJ.

2) Stealth for the 22 means only that you can’t lock on it close before visual range but bandits do know where it is.

3) R-77 HOJ is not that crap like it is modeled in FC 1.12a and 48x HOJ launch (8x6 bandits) will have a chance to hit once.

4) Like I said before the bandits will not approach together

5) The first bandit will turn and just outrun your first 120 (Oops already 1 is gone, do I have to continue)

[NAEMNIK]

200 milion F-22 / 35 milion Su-30 = 1 F22 vs. 6 Su-30

Ak-47 = 2100 $

M4a1 = 3200 $

(For example)

 

To kill the man it is possible both from that and from another.

The price - not a parameter.

[GGTharos]

Ooh, now you are throwing in a B52 in our 6 versus 1 engagement (still don’t believe that the 22 will do his job).

 

No, it's just that you're apparently incapable of following an example :)

 

1) About the 22: it has a huge powerful jammer! Nice bait for HOJ.

 

Which shows how clueless you are when it comes to jammer operation.

First and foremost, the 22 has stealth, and won't need to use its SPJ.

If for any reason it does need to use the SPJ, the SPJ will fire off a pulse long enought o break the lock as needed and shut off ... it certainly won't be working like it does in LOMAC, with everyone and their momma showing their jammer strobes all over your scope, -especially- since it can then be ranged.

Not to mention that with the 22 being stealth already, the SPJ will be enormously more successful at confusing the daylights out of incoming missiles ;)

 

Operating a jammer like that is not only useless for stealth aircraft, it is every bit as useless for non-stealth aircraft.

 

2) Stealth for the 22 means only that you can’t lock on it close before visual range but bandits do know where it is.

 

No, it means THAT YOU CANNOT DETECT IT. What's even better, it means that your Radar Homing missiles cannot detect it. If you can see it on radar, you can typically lock on to it ;)

 

 

3) R-77 HOJ is not that crap like it is modeled in FC 1.12a and 48x HOJ launch (8x6 bandits) will have a chance to hit once.

 

Except there'll be no HoJ launches, because there will be no jamming signal to launch on.

By the way, AFAIK all HoJ are proportional navigation, which LOMAC has wrong ... (HoJ in LOMAC is pure) ... so I'm not sure what you're really talking about here. How do you know how HoJ on the real R-77 works anyway? You didn't even understand what HoJ was a couple posts above ;)

 

4) Like I said before the bandits will not approach together

 

Which only means that you don't actually know how air combat works.

 

If they don't aproach together, then they're even more likely to be shot down, and more easily at that - taken out piecemeal.

[GGTharos]

Ak-47 = 2100 $

M4a1 = 3200 $

(For example)

 

To kill the man it is possible both from that and from another.

The price - not a parameter.

 

Is that the price? O.o

 

The m4 is crap, too ... jams too much, spreads too much ... I suppose that matters little in urban warfare though.

Do you know if that is an M4 with accessories like scope? :)

[TucksonSonny]

No, it's just that you're apparently incapable of following an example :)

 

We are discussing 1 versus 6.

Because you can’t win you put other stuff into the engagement.

 

Which shows how clueless you are when it comes to jammer operation.

First and foremost, the 22 has stealth, and won't need to use its SPJ.

If for any reason it does need to use the SPJ, the SPJ will fire off a pulse long enought o break the lock as needed and shut off ... it certainly won't be working like it does in LOMAC, with everyone and their momma showing their jammer strobes all over your scope, -especially- since it can then be ranged.

Not to mention that with the 22 being stealth already, the SPJ will be enormously more successful at confusing the daylights out of incoming missiles ;)

 

Operating a jammer like that is not only useless for stealth aircraft, it is every bit as useless for non-stealth aircraft.

 

 

I do know for a fact that Jamming is also more efficient while using multiple units (read bandits).

6 bandits will be Jamming so strong that even the 22 will be confused.

 

No, it means THAT YOU CANNOT DETECT IT. What's even better, it means that your Radar Homing missiles cannot detect it. If you can see it on radar, you can typically lock on to it ;)

 

 

If the 22 don’t need his strong jammer why he has got one?

 

 

Except there'll be no HoJ launches, because there will be no jamming signal to launch on.

By the way, AFAIK all HoJ are proportional navigation, which LOMAC has wrong ... (HoJ in LOMAC is pure) ... so I'm not sure what you're really talking about here. How do you know how HoJ on the real R-77 works anyway? You didn't even understand what HoJ was a couple posts above ;)

 

I was in the assumption that you would know that the 22 would use his Jammer while being vulnerable with his radar on.

 

Which only means that you don't actually know how air combat works.

 

If they don't aproach together, then they're even more likely to be shot down, and more easily at that - taken out piecemeal.

 

In 1 versus 6 situations bandits will split!

Is that OK with you?

[GGTharos]

Absolutely. We'd see 3 pairs of 2 ... I'm not sure how this changes their BVR situation from 60km out when AIM-120D's are inbound on them and they won't even be able to pick up the 22 until it's 15-20km from them ... the F-22's radar search and track coverage is enormous - it reallyg ets worse from here on:

 

The AESA radar can maintain track of multiple targets while still searching for more, over a very large volume of airspace without much trouble, very much -unlike- TWS (in fact, if it was so desired, AESA could effectively maintain the equivalent of an STT-quality lock on multiple targets, something that is not possible with mechanically scanned altennae and is mis-respesented in LOMAC) and at the same time it will still provide minimal warning.

 

But that's not the end of it: The AIM-120D features a two-way datalink. Potentially, it can tell the parent aircraft whom it's attacking, allowing the more powerful computing resources of the F-22 to deconflict targets for multiple AMRAAMs and ensuring they will not attack decoys, or the same aircraft.

 

I'm really not sure how any of your Su-35's are going to be sneaking by in the face of all this, especially since the 22 will be tracking them from 160km out and they'll barely be even aware if at all.

 

LPI radars can really mess with your RWR too ;)

[TucksonSonny]

Absolutely. We'd see 3 pairs of 2 ... I'm not sure how this changes their BVR situation from 60km out when AIM-120D's are inbound on them and they won't even be able to pick up the 22 until it's 15-20km from them ... the F-22's radar search and track coverage is enormous - it reallyg ets worse from here on:

 

The AESA radar can maintain track of multiple targets while still searching for more, over a very large volume of airspace without much trouble, very much -unlike- TWS (in fact, if it was so desired, AESA could effectively maintain the equivalent of an STT-quality lock on multiple targets, something that is not possible with mechanically scanned altennae and is mis-respesented in LOMAC) and at the same time it will still provide minimal warning.

 

But that's not the end of it: The AIM-120D features a two-way datalink. Potentially, it can tell the parent aircraft whom it's attacking, allowing the more powerful computing resources of the F-22 to deconflict targets for multiple AMRAAMs and ensuring they will not attack decoys, or the same aircraft.

 

I'm really not sure how any of your Su-35's are going to be sneaking by in the face of all this, especially since the 22 will be tracking them from 160km out and they'll barely be even aware if at all.

 

LPI radars can really mess with your RWR too ;)

 

I did also read all this fancy stuff about the 22 too but I am still not convinced that

at the end of the engagement the 22 would have scored more than 5 kills.

My point is at the end of the engagement you look at 6 kills (1x22 and 5xSu) with 1 Su going home!

(Outnumbered)

BTW, I was already reading technical articles about HOJ since the beginning of my falcon period (read 1999! Believe me I know a lot about HOJ and jamming!

About RWR I will talk later.

BTW, It is 22:25 in Belgium!

Good night!