Braking Pedals and Throttle to Buy

[lockon2015]

This post is similar to my earlier post about rudder pedals, but different enough in my mind to be a new thread.

I am going to mostly fly modern jets and planes at present and not going to do planes before the 1970s nor any helicopters (old or new) for a long time.

I also won’t spend much time on takeoff/landing. I prefer missions where I am already airborne, as much as possible.

 

It looks like I am at the point to where accessories are needed. Pressing or hold buttons on the keyboard all the time proves very difficult, as I'm sure everyone knows, especially for speeding up and braking (slowing down in the air) and I’m ready to buy some new accessories to make the experience easier. Previously I asked about rudder pedals and got lots of good information about them.

I find I am wanting braking pedals the most at this point in my progress.

Are braking pedals the same thing as rudder pedals, or do I need different pedals for braking? It did seem that rudder pedals could assigned braking functions (from earlier posts). However, for modern jets, people said mostly that rudder pedals would not be needed. If people who fly modern jets don’t have rudder pedals, do they still have braking pedals? If not, how do they brake without using keyboard functions?

If the braking pedals are different from rudder pedals, what opinions do people have as far as brands and models?

I admit, that when I went to speed up or slow down, I instinctively wish to have gas and braking pedals, like a car, though I know speeding up and slowing down in the jets and airplanes doesn’t work quite that way. Is this possible with the right accessory? If so, why would stepup and stepdown thrust be needed in increments where, to speed up or slow down, you could just keep your foot on the gas to speed up and foot on the brake to slow down, like a car?

When people use the throttle, is it common practice that the left-hand (I am right handed and have the joystick in that hand) to control the throttle? This relates to speed up/down in flight. The default keyboard controls for the Su-27 I know about are Num +/- to thrust up and down a lot, PageUp and PageDown to Thrust up/down in increments, and also the “lever” that I can swing through 180 degrees in front of the handle on the joystick, this later joystick throttle to control the gas flow. First, do I have this all correct?

From the previous post I had on rudder pedals, I did not think that I needed a left-handed joystick for throttle. I hadn’t even considered the throttle as needing a separate accessory as I hadn’t progressed that far in the simulations to even know about them, but I really I need a throttle at this point. How are the above throttle/accelerate functions suppose to transfer to a separate throttle accessory ideally? I looked up the throttles on the internet, X-55, X-52, Ch Pro, and three level quadrant. What does the thumb do, ideally, or which fingers is it good to have on which buttons/levers most readily for a throttle accessory?

 

Also on the list of accessories in the previous post was a trackIr. I didn’t see much of this on amazon or ebay, at least nothing that made sense in the context of flight simulation, and don’t know what a trackIr would be useful for. I just might not have come to that part of fighter piloting yet. But, people did say it should be high on my list of accessories, even more than pedals, so I wanted to inquire further.

[kingpinda]

a few notes on rudder pedals.

 

Rudder pedals use 1 axis for yaw. (steering left and right) if you push your left foot forward your right foot will be pushed backwards. Alot of planes taxi like this. If for example you engage nose wheel steering on the A-10C and you push the right rudder you will veer right. then when taking off and you get speed of 50? 70? knots you disengage the nose wheel steering and control the rudder instead of the nose gear which is now locked. this is vital for taking off in a clean way. At low speeds the rudder doesn't do much because of too little air resistance. I believe EVERY rudder pedal out there also has toe brakes. left and right toe brake. you push the brake down and if the plane has diferntial braking it will turn the craft that way. If you push down both you will come to a standstill. (eventually depending on speed)

 

Also to be able to fly efficient you should also be aware if you are flying "straight" if you don't you bleed airspeed and you won't get optimal speed when dodging missiles etc. there is a little ball which slips left and right to let you know which way your nose is pointing in relation to your ACTUAL heading. Aviators learn to "step on the ball" meaning if the ball has slipped to the right, you push right rudder untill the ball centers and you are flying straight. this is also standard procedure in turns.

 

When going to do air to ground gunnery, you can use the rudder to better settle the pip on target when you are not flying straight towards it. better way is to have no side slip at all but if you do a bit you can modify your aim.

 

Now to come back to car pedals, gas and brake you obviously miss 1 axis. and you dont get the proper feedback when pushing say brake = left rudder and gas = right rudder. I thought initially that you meant those when you mentioned "braking pedals"

 

as for brands.. I started out with saitek pedals, then Logitech G940 pedals and now MFG crosswind.

 

The latter is relatively more expensive. Think about 300 euros including shipping if I recall correctly. But i dont think you need these. I longed for more precision because I fly mainly WWII crates and Helicopters. This is where "good" rudder pedals really shine.

 

I believe you would be content with a "cheap" saitek pedals. I believe they are about 80 bucks. I didnt like the hardware center deadzone or the accuracy but I think 300 euros for the MFG crosswind is overkill for you.

 

 

 

Now on to throttles

 

HOTAS! Hands on Throttle and Stick.

Most modern aircraft have the most essential functions within easy reach on the HOTAS. This is very VERY convenient so you don't have to acces the keyboard all the time.

 

Having Throttle on pedals is a bad idea. With a car you put your foot on the gas and leave it there to maintain ground speed and take of your foot to drop speed. With a plane this works differently because there is way less friction. braking in the air is done by lowering throttle, pitching nose up to let gravity and friction reduce your speed (i'm not really qualified to explain this well there are alot of people on this board who can do a far better job. Suffice to say you don't kick the brake to go slower like in a car) or using airbrakes. these are special "flaps" which open up to increase air resistance. Usually you set your throttle to a certain percentage and leave it there untill you want to change it. For instance if you are trimming your aircraft nose up you will need more throttle to maintain the airspeed and or altitude. having your foot on the gas constantly will become a massive pain.

 

Even more so if you want to delve in authentic landings. at landing the rules are changed when deploying landing flaps. Now throttle controls altitude and pitch (nose up nose down) controls speed. if your nose is slightly trimmed up and you increase throttle you will rise up. if you want to go slower you trim the nose up a bit more. iF you need to go faster you trim your nose down. in this manner you can safely control your descend. This is also not explained really well by me.

 

It is indeed common that if you are right handed that you control the throttle quadrant with your left hand. I mean .. with what hand do you want to control your joystick? You can't control both with 1 hand. Unless you buy a joystick with a slider which acts as a throttle. but then you will use the left hand to control the slider on the joystick you are holding with your right hand.

 

Your thumb does what you want with it. All throttles are highly customizable in game. I bought the Thrustmaster warthog but only because my Logitech G940 throttle was failing. The more buttons you have the more functionality you have under your finger tips. if you set up a "switch" in DCS. then you can double the commands under your fingertips minus 1 (the switch) or triple it with 2 switches minus 2 buttons.

 

On the warthog throttle my thumb controls 1 4 way hat with middle button,

 

2 three way switches and one 2 way switch.

 

 

there is alot to learn about throttles. I owned the old saitek throttle and i was content with it. Sad thing was that the joystick wasn't accurate enough for my needs. now that my logitech broke down I opted for one of the better throttles and also sadly the most expensive ones in the sim GAMING market. there are more expensive ones made for the military which are now also being made for comsumers but those cost a few thousand dollars.

 

A good throttle quadrant does a few things. it controls the throttle. or in some cases two engines if you get a split throttle. You can indepently control 2 engines that way.

 

And it provides buttons and switches so you can bind your crucial functions to them. microphone to contact tower, radar sweep and locking, selecting targets, selecting weapons, flaps, airbrakes, autopilot CHAFF/FlARES although you can also bind these to the joystick ofcourse

 

A 3 lever throttle like the saitek throttle quadrant is not need for you. These are primarily used in WWII crates to control proppellor pitch, radiators, oil mix etc. or in airbuses which have quite a few engines with their mix etc.

 

What you need is a mono or DUAL split throttle. something like the saitek or something. If i didnt hate the layout of the rhino joystick I probably would have bought that hotas. The throttle looks very cool and has a lot of functionality.

 

now on to Track Ir. i am on the same boat that TrackIr will change your life. well not your life but your flying experience. A good throttle and Trackir are on the top of my list as well.

 

Trackir or something dumbed down like facetracknoir do the following.

 

you have the trackir cam or webcam on your screen. You attach a led system to your headphone or use a clip on a baseball cap( the latter is not advised if you wear reflecting prescription glasses because of interference with the device)

 

Now the camera picks up in which way your head is tilted VERY ACCURATELY because of the 3 leds positions. If you move your head slightly the camera picks this up because of the leds being in different positions.

 

now when you for instance turn your head 2 cm's to the left this will translate in game that your head has turned 20 cm's to the left. This is all adjustable ofcourse to be more or less sensitive. but anyway if you turn your head left 2 cm's or more the ingame image will pan the view to the left. So with correct settings you will be able to pan the ingame cockpit to look behind above or to the side of you with only slight movements and without taking your eyes from the screen.

 

You can also MOVE your head/body to the left so the ingame pilot puts his head against the glass so you can watch alongside the nose to the left.

Trackir has 6 degrees of freedom. Pitch up down, yaw left right, tilt diagonally and "zoom" in and out. the webcam face track does 4 degrees I believe but am not to sure about that.

 

I urge you to watch some Trackir movies or streams where you can see both the ingame cockpit and the person with the gear.

 

 

This works VERY intuitively compared to panning with a joystick hat.

 

let me know if you need more information

Edited September 10, 2015 by kingpinda

[doveman]

Just another option. Instead of an expensive TrackIR or building your own LED tracker (which isn't that easy) you could try EDtracker. It has sensors like your mobile phone to detect tilt, etc, so you just stick it on your headphones and don't need a webcam.

 

It only does 3DOF - yaw, pitch and roll - but I don't even use roll and never liked using the other 3DOF you get with TrackIR or similar as you have to do strange and uncomfortable movements to use them, like squashing down in your chair or stretching your head upwards. I prefer using buttons, sliders, etc to adjust those things.

 

Anyway, EDtracker is about €40 I think ready-made or you can buy the chips, PCB and case and build it yourself for a lot less (I think it cost me less than £20) if you can handle soldering a couple of chips and cutting/drilling a couple of holes in the case. Even I managed that and whilst I'm OK with soldering, I'm pretty rubbish at the other stuff!

[DarkFire]

I was previously of the opinion that rudder pedals weren't necessary for flying the modern aircraft. I was wrong. I understand that you prefer to start & end in the air but as your experience progresses you might well find yourself wanting to do a mission from start to finish, i.e. from cold start to shut down. Rudder pedals are very, very useful not only for gunnery but also for cross-wind landings which can be a real pain if you don't have them. Rudder pedals are also essential for flying helicopters or the WW2 fighters.

 

On the subject of a throttle, I'd say that a good quality throttle is almost essential. It's very necessary for accurate throttle settings (to help with trim, match your speed to a designated time-on-target etc. etc.) and having a multitude of extra buttons available at your finger tips that don't require you to take your eyes away from the screen is very, very useful for both A2G and A2A engagements.

 

I'd also heavily recommend a TrackIR. They're an expensive peripheral to buy so I'd encourage you to watch some youtube videos about how they work. Once you start using one looking around becomes so natural that you'll wonder how you ever managed without one! I know there are cheaper options that do or claim to do the same thing as the actual TrackIR. I can't comment on their performance as I've never used any of them.

[tovivan]

I've been using this in conjunction with my T.16000M and I have to say that I'm more satisfied with this Saitek's build quality than the Thrustmaster's. It's lot more solid and it's parts definitely didn't start wobbling after just a week!

 

 

It's got 3 levers you can program any way you want (in DCS I use them for separate engine management, while using throttle on joystick itself for radar range, elevation and mfd range; in IL-2 I use the levers for throttle, flaps, prop pitch). The best thing is you can combine it with more of them, creating almost limitless possibilities, like this:

 

Limited only with the space on your desk and the number of USB ports you have.

 

You also get additional lever "caps", so if you want they are either all black and rounded, or red or blue.

 

Each quadrant comes with 3 levers with a LOT of up-down (compared to only 3cm on 16000) and 6 buttons that give a lot of different options in DCS. I have one button always mapped to push to talk for TS, another for wheel-brakes and another for gear, so I don't need to take my hand off it.

 

Was not even that expensive, only 45 EUR locally (the only computer stuff I've seen in my country that's cheaper than in the rest of Europe - usually our prices are 20% higher - and paychecks only 1/3 of our neighbors').

 

You don't need the most expensive stick, the most expensive throttle and the most expensive rudders to be a good pilot! Don't waste money on gear, rather spend time on improving yourself.

 

The best pilot I ever saw (and that was in IL-2 Cliffs of Dover patched with TF patches - where you fly propeller planes, close dogfight and careful engine management) was a guy using an ancient Logitech 3D Extreme without any pedals or separate throttle. I'm not sure he was even using TrackIR/Freetrack.

 

Yet he dominated without competition everyone else, even those with the most expensive setups, that spent over 1000 eur on sticks, rudders and pedals only...

Edited September 11, 2015 by tovivan

[lockon2015]

All right! I took everyone's advice. I bought some of the gadgets and will try them out. They should arrive this week sometime.

[kingpinda]

All right! I took everyone's advice. I bought some of the gadgets and will try them out. They should arrive this week sometime.

 

Cool :) :pilotfly:

[tovivan]

All right! I took everyone's advice. I bought some of the gadgets and will try them out. They should arrive this week sometime.

 

And which did you get?