M2000 vs Mig-21

[blkspade]

They can lock you from above providing there is enough offset from target and ground. They simply just roll on their back.

 

While true, good luck getting into range of a competent Eagle driver at altitude. Most anybody flying the 21 knows their best chance to get close is with terrain masking. They're a sitting duck at altitude 12-20nm from an Eagle, or basically any of the other 4th gen fighters.

[Sleksa]

While true, good luck getting into range of a competent Eagle driver at altitude. Most anybody flying the 21 knows their best chance to get close is with terrain masking. They're a sitting duck at altitude 12-20nm from an Eagle, or basically any of the other 4th gen fighters.

 

F-15's at altitude are probably the easiest targets I come across in MP games while flying the 21. Also I don't know much about the sitting duck, but good luck catching the ones that dont sit there waiting for the missile to connect.

 

I also can't really see the mirage contesting the f-15's at any altitude in the game simply because the F-15 has such huge advantage with the triple tank spamraam loadout and essentially cannot die unless the pilot gets a) jumped on, or b) commits to a disadvantageous fight. It's far more likely that the mirages in MP will stay fast and slow in the valleys just like the migs, where the radar (and rwr) where the fight between migs and mirages becomes a lot more equal than it looks on paper.

[blkspade]

F-15's at altitude are probably the easiest targets I come across in MP games while flying the 21. Also I don't know much about the sitting duck, but good luck catching the ones that dont sit there waiting for the missile to connect.

 

I also can't really see the mirage contesting the f-15's at any altitude in the game simply because the F-15 has such huge advantage with the triple tank spamraam loadout and essentially cannot die unless the pilot gets a) jumped on, or b) commits to a disadvantageous fight. It's far more likely that the mirages in MP will stay fast and slow in the valleys just like the migs, where the radar (and rwr) where the fight between migs and mirages becomes a lot more equal than it looks on paper.

 

You probably misread my post, or the fact that I was quoting someone suggesting the mig-21 can engage targets below them by being inverted. So the statement is about the mig being at altitude, and how that would be a bad idea for them.

[Quent]

Me getting lucky on the subject. This of course can't be considered serious aerodynamic research but as you can see, the AI-Mirage2000 is quite a handful. And I don't want to do this again, you can only have so much luck :)

 

Quite good material you've got here.

[jojo]

F-15's at altitude are probably the easiest targets I come across in MP games while flying the 21.

 

This is probably more related to desk-top pilot being lazy in their virtual F-15 than representative of actual aircraft's capacity...:joystick:

 

This funny all these MiG 21 drivers claiming that their Fishbed is THE ultimate fighter, I even wonder why the Russians designed MiG-23 and MiG-29 ? :music_whistling:

[SFC Tako]

Quite good material you've got here.

 

Hey, thanks :)

But here's the truth: The AI-Mirage2000 is for the moment really stupid. Yes, I got beaten up badly at first...but once I figured out it's moves, well then I could whip it with a rusty old Sabre. In fact, I believe it's easier to go guns-only with a Sabre or Mig-15 against the AI-Mirage2000, considering the Mig-21 is just an engine with fins on ;) I really hope they get the AI for the Mirage2000 sorted (I haven't installed 1.5 so I know nothing right now). And also, this guns-only fighting is quite probably very rare in real life. A fully equipped Mirage2000 would probably be something to run away from ASAP. And I will buy the Mirage, that's non-negotiable :pilotfly:

 

EDIT: Right after the Mig-21 fight I thought I was really really good, but as I explored the AI further...

 

Here's Sabre vs retarded AI

Edited October 7, 2015 by SFC Tako

[Hummingbird]

Took a still in the vid, and honestly I see very little flex:

[PiedDroit]

@ 00:30

@ 01:04

@ 02:49

 

I think there is a part of optical effect due to leading-edge slats position.

 

however, see here :

@ 00:45 and @ 01:09

It looks more like optical illusion to me too. It seems there's wing flex but as soon as the wing is aligned with the camera you see there's no flex (as on Hummingbird's screenshot).

AFAIK the mirage wing were known for their strength and rigidity and they allowed the aircraft to carry very heavy loads.

 

This should make it quite tough to take down, too.

Edited October 7, 2015 by PiedDroit

[jojo]

Here's Sabre vs retarded AI

 

Yes stupid AI. All it can do is turn with full stick aft and burner on. So it never regains speed.

 

Secondly, the current FM has nothing to do with upcoming (and hopefully) more accurate FM.

 

But I think you guessed about that. :smilewink:

 

Don't expect the same in MP !

[SFC Tako]

^^It will most likely spark controversy in MP, a lot of "experts" will have a lot of angry things to say about it and such :) I myself have never tried MP...but maybe with the Mirage I will. Just to get the "experts" angry ;)

[blkspade]

Hey, thanks :)

But here's the truth: The AI-Mirage2000 is for the moment really stupid. Yes, I got beaten up badly at first...but once I figured out it's moves, well then I could whip it with a rusty old Sabre. In fact, I believe it's easier to go guns-only with a Sabre or Mig-15 against the AI-Mirage2000, considering the Mig-21 is just an engine with fins on ;) I really hope they get the AI for the Mirage2000 sorted (I haven't installed 1.5 so I know nothing right now). And also, this guns-only fighting is quite probably very rare in real life. A fully equipped Mirage2000 would probably be something to run away from ASAP. And I will buy the Mirage, that's non-negotiable :pilotfly:

 

EDIT: Right after the Mig-21 fight I thought I was really really good, but as I explored the AI further...

 

The AI does behave somewhat differently in 1.5. I mostly fly against the MiG29 and Su27 though, and not sure yet if some of the differences are flight model changes for either my jet or theirs.

[SFC Tako]

^^ Well, it must mean something :)

Also for example, I understand that the Sabre now is a bit smarter against the Mig-15 (previously it was just rape and plunder flying a Mig vs AI-Sabre).

[Rain]

I've actually read all of this thread now from the beginning to the end after doing some research on M-2000C, I laughed my guts out. Thanks, fun times...

 

Mirage 2000 is one of my favourite combat jets, as MiG-21 is for some people. Having a victory in any of them depends on alot more things than pilot skills and characteristics of the plane. But saying the 21 is of similiar potency as Mirage 2000 is a comedy. In the end, all these fights are not that simple as people potrait them to be, and that is one of the reasons why DCS is such a great software flight sim platform.

[Hummingbird]

Ramsey let's do the Dogfight today at 00:00 CET (EST 18:00)

[jojo]

Please share DCS or TacView track :D

[Hummingbird]

Please share DCS or TacView track :D

 

Not sure the tracks work, but will do. Sadly I don't have TacView, perhaps I should get it. Is it easy to install/use?

[Corsair]

The best tool for flight sim analysis (even works with real life GPS tracks !), a must have ;)

[jojo]

Not sure the tracks work, but will do. Sadly I don't have TacView, perhaps I should get it. Is it easy to install/use?

 

Yep, it's free and it records your DCS fights by itself

[il_corleone]

The only way to solve this is by releasing the Mirage right now :D so we can test it :) :)

[Hook47]

Hey, you know what? I can make 1800, so I'll bite... It doesn't prove a thing about my original discussion which has now been deleted, but I enjoy a challenge!

 

I'll toss up a server at 18:00 named "F-15 Vs MiG 21 Guns" if you are willing to fly. I could care less about concessions or gloating, I enjoy a challenge. We can use a channel on the 104th teamspeak

 

As for those wanting tracks for gloating purposes or whatever reason, as said above, I invite you to join in yourself! I'll put a few 15s and MiGs in.

 

Note that I don't have too long before I have some other obligations tonight, but we can get a few flights in.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Hook47

[GGTharos]

I suspect there's a limit to how many people Ramsey wants to dogfight :)

[Hook47]

I suspect there's a limit to how many people Ramsey wants to dogfight :)

 

And why would you suspect that? You're welcome to join in, I never said the MiG 21 has anything but a disadvantage with guns only thanks to radar sights, but I'm a laid back dude and don't get my feelings hurt as easily as some it seems. You are welcome to hop in if you like, that goes for F-15 and MiG 21 drivers. Like I said, I enjoy a challenge either way.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

Ramsey,

 

I'm still downloading 2.0, but hopefully it will be ready in a 30 min time.

 

About the fight, we can try with missiles too if you like, I can even reduce the amount of chaff & flares so that it matches that of the Mirage 2000C.

 

The point of the fight was to show you that against the F-15 you will stand very little chance in WVR, and for that reason you will stand an even smaller chance against the Mirage. No feelings or desire to gloat are present from my end. As you remember I kept a very respectable tone with you throughout our discussion, I simply disagree with your opinion :)

[GGTharos]

Because after about 10 BFM sessions, I get tired!

 

And why would you suspect that? You're welcome to join in, I never said the MiG 21 has anything but a disadvantage with guns only thanks to radar sights, but I'm a laid back dude and don't get my feelings hurt as easily as some it seems. You are welcome to hop in if you like, that goes for F-15 and MiG 21 drivers. Like I said, I enjoy a challenge either way.

[Hummingbird]

Well we tried the dogfighting and it went as expected, the MiG-21 really doesn't stand much chance in WVR with the F-15. Thus it will stand even less of a chance against the Mirage in this scenario.