ShuRugal Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Donno if anyone else is experiencing this, but the fuel meter and status lamps are inoperative for me in the MiG-29S. Loving the new cockpit, though, great work!
fitness88 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Can someone please explain how to read the Mig 29 fuel indicator when the orange lights to the left of the indicator start to appear. I was flying last night with 1X 1500 Litre tank and 2X 1150 Litre tanks. Wasn't sure when the individual tanks were dry as the lights came on. Thank you. Edited October 22, 2015 by fitness88
pepin1234 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 The first light up when light on is because you start spend fuel from the internal tanks and the external are empty. No way to know which tank is empty. Is like that in FC3 Mig-29 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
fitness88 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 The first light up when light on is because you start spend fuel from the internal tanks and the external are empty. No way to know which tank is empty. Is like that in FC3 Mig-29 First light = all 3 external empty, with no way to know when the 1150L or the 1500L is individually empty. Also first light means starting to use internal tank. What are the rest of the lights for, I believe there are 4. Do they refer to different tanks?
pepin1234 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) First light = all 3 external empty, with no way to know when the 1150L or the 1500L is individually empty. Also first light means starting to use internal tank. What are the rest of the lights for, I believe there are 4. Do they refer to different tanks? The another three lights should be for internals fuel tanks only. There is a switch at the bottom of the fuel instrument. This switch is not implemented and is always set at the T position that mean is using only the fuel capacity for internal tanks. The another P position is used for external tanks with flow meter. What I understood in real life the capacity of fuel should be set manually before the flight when using external tank, so that's why you have the P position but this is not in game implemented. See here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=70274&highlight=29+fuel Edited October 24, 2015 by pepin1234 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
fitness88 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 The another three lights should be for internals fuel tanks only. There is a switch at the bottom of the fuel instrument. This switch is not implemented and is always set at the T position that mean is using only the fuel capacity for internal tanks. The another P position is used for external tanks with flow meter. What I understood in real life the capacity of fuel should be set manually before the flight when using external tank, so that's why you have the P position but this is not in game implemented. See here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=70274&highlight=29+fuel Thank you pepin1234
Alfa Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) First light = all 3 external empty, with no way to know when the 1150L or the 1500L is individually empty. Also first light means starting to use internal tank. What are the rest of the lights for, I believe there are 4. Do they refer to different tanks? The real fuel gauges are different between the MiG-29 and MiG-29S. In the gauge for the MiG-29(baseline version) there are 4 lamps for empty thanks: - the top one indicating end of transfer from the external centerline tank(which in RL doesn't necessarily mean that it is empty, but just that transfer has been cut off by a flow sensor). - the second one indicating that the internal wing tanks(in LERX'es) have been emptied. - third one for internal tank no. 3 - fourth one for internal tank no. 1 In the gauge for the MiG-29S, there are 5 lamps: - top one again for external centerline tank - second one for external wing drop tanks - third for internal wing tanks - fourth for internal tank no 3 - fifth for internal tank no. 1 pepin1234 wrote: The another three lights should be for internals fuel tanks only. There is a switch at the bottom of the fuel instrument. This switch is not implemented and is always set at the T position that mean is using only the fuel capacity for internal tanks. The another P position is used for external tanks with flow meter. What I understood in real life the capacity of fuel should be set manually before the flight when using external tank, so that's why you have the P position but this is not in game implemented. Correct. The external tanks don't have sensors in them, so the remaining quantity cannot be meassured directly - with the switch in question set to the "T" position, the fuel gauge only shows the meassured fuel(i.e. only in internal tanks). With the switch set in "P" position, the fuel system calculates the entire remaining fuel quantity based on a manually pre-set initial value and rate of consumption as a function of the flowmeter. The gauge for the "baseline" MiG-29 has an additional switch at the top of the gauge, which selects flowmeter readout(remaining flight time) based either on optimal flight regime or current one - this switch was deleted on the gauge of the MiG-29S(and MiG-29 9.13) and IIRC the flowmeter always shows remaining flight time for optimal conditions. Anyway, a lit empty lamp only tells you that a particular tank(s) is empty and not how much fuel you got left although the triangular yellow markers give you a rough estimate - i.e. each pointing to a lamp and with the "flat end" indicating a range on the fuel tape within which the remaining quantity should be when that lamp lights up. Edited October 24, 2015 by Alfa JJ
pepin1234 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 All right. I search for real picture of the 5 lights in build serie but never got a real picture. With the actual 3D cockpit we continue with 4 gauge lights [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Alfa Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I search for real picture of the 5 lights in build serie but never got a real picture. Honestly? :) Here is one attached - and another with the 9.12 gauge for comparison. JJ
fitness88 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) The real fuel gauges are different between the MiG-29 and MiG-29S. In the gauge for the MiG-29(baseline version) there are 4 lamps for empty thanks: - the top one indicating end of transfer from the external centerline tank(which in RL doesn't necessarily mean that it is empty, but just that transfer has been cut off by a flow sensor). - the second one indicating that the internal wing tanks(in LERX'es) have been emptied. - third one for internal tank no. 3 - fourth one for internal tank no. 1 In the gauge for the MiG-29S, there are 5 lamps: - top one again for external centerline tank - second one for external wing drop tanks - third for internal wing tanks - fourth for internal tank no 3 - fifth for internal tank no. 1 Correct. The external tanks don't have sensors in them, so the remaining quantity cannot be meassured directly - with the switch in question set to the "T" position, the fuel gauge only shows the meassured fuel(i.e. only in internal tanks). With the switch set in "P" position, the fuel system calculates the entire remaining fuel quantity based on a manually pre-set initial value and rate of consumption as a function of the flowmeter. The gauge for the "baseline" MiG-29 has an additional switch at the top of the gauge, which selects flowmeter readout(remaining flight time) based either on optimal flight regime or current one - this switch was deleted on the gauge of the MiG-29S(and MiG-29 9.13) and IIRC the flowmeter always shows remaining flight time for optimal conditions. Anyway, a lit empty lamp only tells you that a particular tank(s) is empty and not how much fuel you got left although the triangular yellow markers give you a rough estimate - i.e. each pointing to a lamp and with the "flat end" indicating a range on the fuel tape within which the remaining quantity should be when that lamp lights up. Thank you for your response. I did a flight test with: 1 centerline tank = 1500L 2 external wing drop tanks = 1150L and here is what happened: When the first light came on I pressed jettison 1 time and the 2 external wing drop tanks = 1150L dropped from the plane. When the second light came on I pressed jettison 1 more time and the 1 centerline tank = 1500L dropped from the plane. So that tells me the 2 external wing drop tanks = 1150L empty first as you would expect and then the 1 centerline tank = 1500L empties. Above you stated the opposite? I believe the lights do come on in the order the tanks empty...so what does the second light mean when it comes on when there is no 2 external wing drop tanks = 1150L only the 1 centerline tank = 1500L? Thank you again Edited October 24, 2015 by fitness88
pepin1234 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) No. We told you already. Is no way to know when the wings dropped tank is empty. The instrument you have there is for 9.12 Mig-29 version and for some reason we have not the 5 lights 9.13S version yet as fuel instrument. I give you a tipp. Take again the three dropped tanks and keep checking the armament menu in flight, so you gone know when you spend the external tanks. I am sorry we can't activate the P position to flow meter :( Then do the same with non external tank If am wrong then tell me Edited October 24, 2015 by pepin1234 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
fitness88 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 No. We told you already. Is no way to know when the wings dropped tank is empty. The instrument you have there is for 9.12 Mig-29 version and for some reason we have not the 5 lights 9.13S version yet as fuel instrument. I give you a tipp. Take again the three dropped tanks and keep checking the armament menu in flight, so you gone know when you spend the external tanks. I am sorry we can't activate the P position to flow meter :( Then do the same with non external tank If am wrong then tell me pepin1234 are you posting to me or Alfa?
pepin1234 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 pepin1234 are you posting to me or Alfa? to you [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Alfa Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 ....So that tells me the 2 external wing drop tanks = 1150L empty first as you would expect and then the 1 centerline tank = 1500L empties. In the game perhaps, but thats not how it works IRL :) - remember that wing drop tanks were not part of the original MiG-29 fuel system, but rather a later modification introduced with the 9.13 version. The fuel flow is not a simple matter of emptying one tank after another in sequence, but a rather complex system in which fuel is being re-distributed between internal tanks via a series of pumps in order to maintain the balance of the aircraft as fuel is being depleted - this is especially the case with internal tank no 1 and and 3. Explaining this in detail would be a little too much to go into here, but in basic terms the sequence is that the external centerline tank(which is connected to the internal tank no. 1) is emptied first, then as fuel starts to be taken from internal tank no. 1, the system starts to compensate by pumping in fuel from internal wing tanks, which in turn is compensated for by drawing in fuel from external wing drop tanks(which are connected to internal wing tanks). So: - external centerline tank - external wing drop tanks - internal wing tanks - internal tank no. 3 - internal tank no. 1 - internal tank no. 2(engine feed tank) - engines die :) The internal tank no. 2(engine feed tank) is not represented directly on the fuel gauge, but the capacity of this(some 550 kg) corresponds to critical level("bingo" state) as indicated by the red line at the bottom of the fuel tape. Now as far as the game goes, I don't understand ED's implementation. I can understand that full replication of the fuel system(s) and its features such as the business with the switch between meassured/calculated fuel level, is something that will have to wait for a "study level" MiG-29 module. But IMO there should at least be a clear distinction between the MiG-29 and MiG-29S - i.e. the MiG-29(baseline 9.12) should have the old version of the fuel gauge and no the ability to carry wing drop tanks, while the MiG-29S should have the new fuelgauge + ability to carry wing drop tanks. JJ
fitness88 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 In the game perhaps, but thats not how it works IRL :) - remember that wing drop tanks were not part of the original MiG-29 fuel system, but rather a later modification introduced with the 9.13 version. The fuel flow is not a simple matter of emptying one tank after another in sequence, but a rather complex system in which fuel is being re-distributed between internal tanks via a series of pumps in order to maintain the balance of the aircraft as fuel is being depleted - this is especially the case with internal tank no 1 and and 3. Explaining this in detail would be a little too much to go into here, but in basic terms the sequence is that the external centerline tank(which is connected to the internal tank no. 1) is emptied first, then as fuel starts to be taken from internal tank no. 1, the system starts to compensate by pumping in fuel from internal wing tanks, which in turn is compensated for by drawing in fuel from external wing drop tanks(which are connected to internal wing tanks). So: - external centerline tank - external wing drop tanks - internal wing tanks - internal tank no. 3 - internal tank no. 1 - internal tank no. 2(engine feed tank) - engines die :) The internal tank no. 2(engine feed tank) is not represented directly on the fuel gauge, but the capacity of this(some 550 kg) corresponds to critical level("bingo" state) as indicated by the red line at the bottom of the fuel tape. Now as far as the game goes, I don't understand ED's implementation. I can understand that full replication of the fuel system(s) and its features such as the business with the switch between meassured/calculated fuel level, is something that will have to wait for a "study level" MiG-29 module. But IMO there should at least be a clear distinction between the MiG-29 and MiG-29S - i.e. the MiG-29(baseline 9.12) should have the old version of the fuel gauge and no the ability to carry wing drop tanks, while the MiG-29S should have the new fuelgauge + ability to carry wing drop tanks. Thanks Alfa, your info is interesting. I think the fuel balance transfer may actually be modelled into the fuel flow and perhaps dropping wing tanks before CL tank is a further modelling of aircraft balancing. I have done fuel weight testing with/without center line tanks and found something inconsistent. Using ctrl-' to open the arming window, with 0% fuel on the fuel slider and no loadout/ext. fuel tanks, the Mig 29s weighs in at 25016 lbs. With external centerline fuel tank [2756 lbs.] only and the fuel slider set to 0% the weight goes up to 27772 lbs. Then I click OK and wait for ground control to confirm change and I go back to arming window and notice the fuel slider has now been set to 34% with a Total weight of 30396 lbs. However 25016 lb. plane weight + 2756 lbs. fuel weight for CL tank = 27772 lbs not 30396 lbs. Where did the other 2624 lbs. of fuel come from?
pepin1234 Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Maybe we get this problem fixed when a second American fighter become playable :smartass: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
fitness88 Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Maybe we get this problem fixed when a second American fighter become playable :smartass: Like F/A-18...would be nice:thumbup:
Alfa Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Thanks Alfa, your info is interesting. I think the fuel balance transfer may actually be modelled into the fuel flow and perhaps dropping wing tanks before CL tank is a further modelling of aircraft balancing. Well which tanks are emptied first is one thing, but which you decide to jettison first(e.g. in preparation for a turning fight) is another :) . Since the wing drop tanks are offset from centerline, heavier(combined) and produce more drag than the centerline tank, it would be logical to get rid of them first. In the real aircraft there is one button for jettison of the centerline tank and another for(both) wing drop tanks. In the game there is just one toggle command, so the routine for automatically dropping the wing tanks first is probably just a simplicity issue. I have done fuel weight testing with/without center line tanks and found something inconsistent. Using ctrl-' to open the arming window, with 0% fuel on the fuel slider and no loadout/ext. fuel tanks, the Mig 29s weighs in at 25016 lbs. With external centerline fuel tank [2756 lbs.] only and the fuel slider set to 0% the weight goes up to 27772 lbs. Then I click OK and wait for ground control to confirm change and I go back to arming window and notice the fuel slider has now been set to 34% with a Total weight of 30396 lbs. However 25016 lb. plane weight + 2756 lbs. fuel weight for CL tank = 27772 lbs not 30396 lbs. Where did the other 2624 lbs. of fuel come from? Well in reality the aircraft cannot fly with just the CL tank and 0% internal fuel - so if the game is forcing some minimal internal fuel per default, then thats probably not a bad idea :) In the real aircraft(9.12) the refuelling process is selected on a panel in left main gear bay and has three options: - 50% - tank 2 and partial filling of tank 1 and 3 - 100% - all internal tanks filled - 130% - all internal tanks + CL drop tank. JJ
fitness88 Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 Well which tanks are emptied first is one thing, but which you decide to jettison first(e.g. in preparation for a turning fight) is another :) . Since the wing drop tanks are offset from centerline, heavier(combined) and produce more drag than the centerline tank, it would be logical to get rid of them first. I would think the tanks you logically would want to drop first...which are the ones that empty first, would be the ones selected in the first drop sequence. In the real aircraft there is one button for jettison of the centerline tank and another for(both) wing drop tanks. In the game there is just one toggle command, so the routine for automatically dropping the wing tanks first is probably just a simplicity issue. Well in reality the aircraft cannot fly with just the CL tank and 0% internal fuel - so if the game is forcing some minimal internal fuel per default, then thats probably not a bad idea :) In the real aircraft(9.12) the refuelling process is selected on a panel in left main gear bay and has three options: - 50% - tank 2 and partial filling of tank 1 and 3 - 100% - all internal tanks filled - 130% - all internal tanks + CL drop tank. I noticed the in game arming window [ctrl-'] will show fuel weight increase as you add fuel drop tanks but does not reflect a decrease in the same arming window if you drop them immediately after take-off.
pepin1234 Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 Did you use afterburner or military power for the test. Could you do the test with these deferent engine use. Example use the afterburner for 80 km and then use the military power for 140 km. Then comment the result in the armament menu please. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
fitness88 Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Did you use afterburner or military power for the test. Could you do the test with these deferent engine use. Example use the afterburner for 80 km and then use the military power for 140 km. Then comment the result in the armament menu please. With 100% internal fuel [32733 lbs.] and 3 drop tanks [7063 lbs.] for a total weight of 39796 lbs., I flew A/B for 80km with no fuel loss indicated on the armament menu. Only when the first light came on did the fuel slider on the armament menu [showing 39796 lbs.] then begin to move from 100% to the left showing a gradual loss of fuel. This doesn't make any sense because 80km out on A/B, whether or not the external tanks are empty the fuel shouldn't still show the original take-off weight.
pepin1234 Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) My idea have base in the possibility the engines take the fuel direct from the internals tanks so this mean the fuel is transferred from the external tanks to the internals tanks and then to the engines. If this is right, then when you use afterburner long time with the externals tanks you are exceeding the max flow capacity of the external to internal transfer system for fuel. just in case. The level you see in the armament menu is in % and probably is showing the internal fuel only Edited October 28, 2015 by pepin1234 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
fitness88 Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 My idea have base in the possibility the engines take the fuel direct from the internals tanks so this mean the fuel is transferred from the external tanks to the internals tanks and then to the engines. If this is right, then when you use afterburner long time with the externals tanks you are exceeding the max flow capacity of the external to internal transfer system for fuel. just in case. The level you see in the armament menu is in % and probably is showing the internal fuel only But it's not the case because the armament menu did show the increase in fuel weight as I added the 3 externals one by one. I believe all internal and drop fuel tanks flow into a feeder tank, from there it goes to the engines.
Recommended Posts