Vitormouraa Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Hello, In combat, the altitude for missiles are really important, and it changes a lot the missile range. My question is: Can the pressure and temperature change the missile range? Other question: Why some missiles have problems to 'find' targets at ground level? I was testing the effectiveness of R-33 (MiG-31 Missile, long range missile, AA-9 Amos) and it's almost impossible shoot down a F-15C at ground level, it goes to the ground or loses the lock. Why does this happen? Thanks Edited November 25, 2015 by Vitormouraa SplashOneGaming Discord https://splashonegaming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmanni Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The reason missile range increases due to altitude is decreased air density, which is affected both by pressure and temperature. So a change in sea level temperature and pressure will have an effect on missile range at sea level. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Hello, In combat, the altitude for missiles are really important, and it changes a lot the missile range. My question is: Can the pressure and temperature change the missile range? Other question: Why some missiles have problems to 'find' targets at ground level? I was testing the effectiveness of R-33 (MiG-31 Missile, long range missile, AA-9 Amos) and it's almost impossible shoot down a F-15C at ground level, it goes to the ground or loses the lock. Why does this happen? Thanks Range is dramatically reduced at ground level due to much higher air density and hence higher drag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Other question: Why some missiles have problems to 'find' targets at ground level? I was testing the effectiveness of R-33 (MiG-31 Missile, long range missile, AA-9 Amos) and it's almost impossible shoot down a F-15C at ground level, it goes to the ground or loses the lock. Why does this happen? Thanks That depends, but it is likely due to it's terminal guidance radar not being very good in a look-down situation. Let me clarify, like the US AIM-120 the R-33 is guided by the launch vehicle's radar until it enters the terminal phase and goes "active". At that point it engages it's own radar to illuminate and find the target. The missile was designed to intercept high altitude, high-speed targets and my educated guess is that it's radar is simply not sophisticated enough to filter out ground clutter from very low flying targets. Edited November 26, 2015 by OnlyforDCS Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitormouraa Posted November 26, 2015 Author Share Posted November 26, 2015 That depends, but it is likely due to it's terminal guidance radar not being very good in a look-down situation. Let me clarify, like the US AIM-120 the R-33 is guided by the launch vehicle's radar until it enters the terminal phase and goes "active". At that point it engages it's own radar to illuminate and find the target. The missile was designed to intercept high altitude, high-speed targets and my educated guess is that it's radar is simply not sophisticated enough to filter out ground clutter from very low flying targets. Yes. that makes sense. When I'm using AMRAAMs I like to climb, high altitudes and then, fire the missile, it's range increases a LOT. Use the TacView, fire the missile at ground level, then, climb to 43k feet~, there's a big difference.. :smilewink: the R-33 has problems to intercept targets at ground level, it's simply CAN NOT intercept, also the R-40R, so, if there's a MiG-31 behind you, go to ground level, fast and low, he can't catch you. haha! :megalol: Thanks for the answers! SplashOneGaming Discord https://splashonegaming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Hello, In combat, the altitude for missiles are really important, and it changes a lot the missile range. My question is: Can the pressure and temperature change the missile range? Other question: Why some missiles have problems to 'find' targets at ground level? I was testing the effectiveness of R-33 (MiG-31 Missile, long range missile, AA-9 Amos) and it's almost impossible shoot down a F-15C at ground level, it goes to the ground or loses the lock. Why does this happen? Thanks Temperature changes Mach number. When it's cold, Mach 1 may be 600 knots. When it's hot, Mach 1 may be 650 knots. If a missile is designed to fly around an optimal Mach number, this can change its performance. Pressure changes the efficiency of the rocket nozzle as max efficiency is gained when the exhaust equals the outside air pressure. The lower the air pressure, the more efficient the rocket can be, although this is limited by the size of the nozzle, so in practice there might only be one optimal air pressure value. 1 Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 That depends, but it is likely due to it's terminal guidance radar not being very good in a look-down situation. Let me clarify, like the US AIM-120 the R-33 is guided by the launch vehicle's radar until it enters the terminal phase and goes "active". At that point it engages it's own radar to illuminate and find the target. The missile was designed to intercept high altitude, high-speed targets and my educated guess is that it's radar is simply not sophisticated enough to filter out ground clutter from very low flying targets. Considering that the MiG-31's Zaslon radar/R-33 missile combo was designed to intercept low flying cruise missiles in addition to high altitude bombers, its likely due to the sim not being very good at representing the MiG-31's capability in look-down situations :D 1 JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) Like is said it depends on the situation at hand, and how well the Mig31 radar is simulated, however where did you find the info that the R-33 missile was designed to intercept low flying cruise missiles?? I haven't even seen any tests where it is fired at cruise missiles? Maybe you are thinking of one of the later variants, but do you have a source? Edited November 27, 2015 by OnlyforDCS Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 ...however where did you find the info that the R-33 missile was designed to intercept low flying cruise missiles?? How could you possibly miss it? :) Maybe you are thinking of one of the later variants.. No I'm not - as a successor to the MiG-25, one of the main requirements for the development of the MiG-31 in general and its weapon's system in particular was exactly the ability to intercept small low flying targets(such as cruise missile) in addition to high altitude bombers. :) . As for a source on the R-33 - this is the manufacturer's page: http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/510/ JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 How could you possibly miss it? :) No I'm not - as a successor to the MiG-25, one of the main requirements for the development of the MiG-31 in general and its weapon's system in particular was exactly the ability to intercept small low flying targets(such as cruise missile) in addition to high altitude bombers. :) . As for a source on the R-33 - this is the manufacturer's page: http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/510/ Thanks. Look at the target engagement altitudes though: It goes from 50 m, up to 25km. What if the target is below 50m? Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 Then it gets shot down by trees :D Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitormouraa Posted November 27, 2015 Author Share Posted November 27, 2015 I recommend you guys put a MiG-31 behind you, loaded with R-40R and R-33. The MiG won't kill you, at the ground level with the F-15C. Zaslon N00-7 is a big radar (not about the size), it's a PESA radar.. shouldn't happen that.. anyways, let's wait for DCS MiG-31 Foxhound.. :) SplashOneGaming Discord https://splashonegaming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Thanks. Look at the target engagement altitudes though: It goes from 50 m, up to 25km. What if the target is below 50m? Well then it probably won't be able to intercept it :) Mind you, I don't know how feasible it would be for a land attack cruise missile to fly below 50 m to terrain - such weapons are usually following a pre-planned route through a series of waypoints and use terrain recognition to navigate, the accuracy of which depending on the quality of the planning maps at hand and terrain diversity along the route. The lower the altitude the higher the risk of colliding with terrain or "man made" objects(known or unknown) due to navigation errors. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Agreed, but a fighter could fly at 50 m and stand a pretty good chance of evading the missile. Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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