Avionics at Engine Start

[Darkheran]

I have a question of authenticity and pure curiosity and wonder if someone more knowledgeable may help. During the startup procedure in many checklists that I have seen for the Ka-50, onboard avionics tend to be turned on prior to the actual engine start. While I am not a aviation mechanic or any kind of mechanic for that matter, I know that many of the civilian aircraft checklists I have seen tend to make a specific entry related to ensuring that ALL avionics are off before starting the engines.

 

My understanding of the reason for this is that such a check is done to protect the avionics from damage on engine start? (Its been awhile since I read about this so I may be forgetting the exact reason) Either way, I was wondering if it would be realistically safe to have avionics on during engine start in the REAL Ka-50, and if someone happens to be knowledgeable enough, to possibly explain what exactly makes it different from many civilian aircraft that require avionics to be off prior to engine start?

 

If this is not the case, is it perhaps just the checklist creator taking advantage of the fact that the DCS Ka-50 doesn't simulate this type of problem during startup? Either way, interested to know and appreciate any information one could provide. Thanks. :)

Edited November 28, 2015 by Darkheran

[mvsgas]

Do you have any of these check list we can look to compare?

I do not have any special knowledge on the KA-50 ( or any aircraft ), but I assume the checklist you are referring to tell you to use ground power, is that correct? If so, that would be one of the differences. Al tho, I would think civilian aircraft (like airlines) leave there APU on during ground operations or use ground power to speed up the startup process.

 

I guess it also depends on the aircraft, on the F-16 (USAF) you do not use ground power except for maintenance, so you have to wait for main gen to be online before starting any of the systems.

 

The main reason for aircraft I have work on to only turn avionics on after main generator has come online is to save the battery. Many systems need main power to start but some can and will use battery energy and you can foul the start if you turn them on early.

Edited November 27, 2015 by mvsgas

[AlphaOneSix]

On aircraft where the engines are started electrically, then it's best to have as little load on the battery as possible when starting the engine. This is not an issue in the Ka-50. The engines are started with air from the APU. Of course, it would probably be wise to not have everything on when starting the APU...

[Darkheran]

Good point about the ground power, maybe this explains it since aircraft like Cessna do not use such power sources. And yes, I can provide a few examples...

 

476th checklist: (this one seems a bit outdated regardless in certain parts however, and also uses ground power) http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=64

 

This one turns the K-041 Shkval on prior to engine start as well as the ABRIS:

[ame=http://www.checksix-fr.com/downloads/dcs/BlackShark/Docs/Normal%20Checklist%20%28Beginner%29%20v1.9.1.pdf]http://www.checksix-fr.com/downloads/dcs/BlackShark/Docs/Normal%20Checklist%20%28Beginner%29%20v1.9.1.pdf[/ame]

 

 

 

Aside from these however, there are several more I can find but do not have the links stored. Specifically speaking, about a year back (ive been forum lurking without an account for a couple years) I created my own checklist using several of them as a reference which does avionics post engine start. It works, and ive gotten fast at it, but just curious as to whether checklists that boot avionics prior to engine start are realistic. If so I may reformat mine, as it would be nice to do ABRIS flight plan management and PVI-800 entry (I prepare my missions with flight plans so that on cold start I have to load them into the system and then manually program the PVI) prior to burning idle or auto throttle fuel on the ramp.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Darkheran
Formating

[Darkheran]

On aircraft where the engines are started electrically, then it's best to have as little load on the battery as possible when starting the engine. This is not an issue in the Ka-50. The engines are started with air from the APU. Of course, it would probably be wise to not have everything on when starting the APU...

 

Thanks, missed this post before responding. This explination helps. Just glad to clear it up.

 

I guess it also depends on the aircraft, on the F-16 (USAF) you do not use ground power except for maintenance, so you have to wait for main gen to be online before starting any of the systems.

 

The main reason for aircraft I have work on to only turn avionics on after main generator has come online is to save the battery. Many systems need main power to start but some can and will use battery energy and you can foul the start if you turn them on early.

 

Thanks, missed your edit, and yes foul start was the reason I couldn't remember. Thanks for the help guys. I guess its time to reformat that Ka-50 checklist I made.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Darkheran

[Looney]

Since military aircraft use inertial navigation systema which need warming up, you really want these systems up and running before commencing a military operation.

 

Remember that in the military, an airframe is a tool, not a means to achieve something. Where the priorities of civilian aviation is more time/cost and comfort based, military flights basically have the priorities set to Fight, Flight, Glide. What this means is that primarily you want the aircraft to be able to fight, if that's not possible anymore, the next priority is having it fly back to Base and if that's no longer an option, either glide down to the ground with or without the airframe. YMMV ofcourse

[msalama]

Ground power? You don't need no steenkeen' ground power. Concerning the Shark, the way I've done it lately is as follows:

 

1) Leccy, radios etc. on & ATC communication

2) Engines on ASAP

3) Warm-up & engine tests

4) Generators on & the rest - system checks & tests, etc.

 

10 minutes all told and no need for ground power. Easy and fast enough in my book - and yes, EVERYTHING gets checked as per the conventional checklists too ;)

Edited November 27, 2015 by msalama

[Darkheran]

Since military aircraft use inertial navigation systema which need warming up, you really want these systems up and running before commencing a military operation.

 

Remember that in the military, an airframe is a tool, not a means to achieve something. Where the priorities of civilian aviation is more time/cost and comfort based, military flights basically have the priorities set to Fight, Flight, Glide. What this means is that primarily you want the aircraft to be able to fight, if that's not possible anymore, the next priority is having it fly back to Base and if that's no longer an option, either glide down to the ground with or without the airframe. YMMV ofcourse

 

Yes, my custom checklist includes early INU power and heat. When I spoke of Avionics, I was referring to the less core centric avionics on the ground, such as the ABRIS, PVI-800, Shkval monitor, CMS, etc. My mistake for not clarifying. My question was more of fuel conservation, as being able to (realistically of course as its a simulator after all) boot avionics prior to engine start conserves alot of fuel during testing stages and such.

 

 

Ground power? You don't need no steenkeen' ground power. Concerning the Shark, the way I've done it lately is as follows:

 

1) Leccy, radios etc. on & ATC communication

2) Engines on ASAP

3) Warm-up & engine tests

4) Generators on & the rest - system checks & tests, etc.

 

10 minutes all told and no need for ground power. Easy and fast enough in my book - and yes, EVERYTHING gets checked as per the conventional checklists too

 

Your checklist sounds somewhat similar to mine as well, however I prefer using ground power when available as to not needlessly wear the battery. Sure this doesn't simulate in DCS, but in my head it does. I leave engine starts on batteries for emergency situations only.

 

 

 

Ive attached my old custom checklist, any tips or suggestions are appreciated so long as they are inline with realism. Obviously I will be moving much of the avionics setups prior to engine start now that I am aware of the ability to do so, but the majority of this checklist was created using several I found online and comparing them to find the majority rule.

KA-50 Custom Checklists.pdf

Edited November 28, 2015 by Darkheran

[msalama]

as to not needlessly wear the battery

Oh, absolutely. That's just prudent and thus a good habit to have. But having flown all kinds of scenarios and missions where anything can happen as regards enemy action, I kind of prefer getting my arse off the ground without any unneeded distractions by now ;) Should I have to purchase the batteries myself, however... :music_whistling:

 

EDIT: So what I'm trying to say, I think, is that the most _straightforward_ way of doing stuff in a combat situation is what keeps you alive. Or something.

 

PS. Your checklist looks good, but there's something in the engine test section that I'd do differently. Can't get my head around the particulars just now though, because I've only flown the Big Stoli Shaker Massive 8 lately and have thus kind of forgotten said particulars...

Edited November 27, 2015 by msalama

[Darkheran]

But having flown all kinds of scenarios and missions where anything can happen as regards enemy action, I kind of prefer getting my arse off the ground without any unneeded distractions by now ;)

 

Ha, yeah I don't blame you there. :lol: