A10 vs Ka-50/52

[Muzzlehead]

Hi all,

 

I'm returning to the fold after 18+ months away...I just picked up FC and have been warming back up flying A2G missions on and offline. My question is how do you all defend/engage against the Ka-50/52. I'm constantly shot down before I can even find the little buggers.

 

Any advice appreciated

[GGTharos]

1. LOOK.

2. In BS, the Vikhr will not longer be a super-unlimited-g-can-do-it-all missile.

 

3. Guns or AIM-9.

4. Stay well above it, dive in as needed (aka. Start flying at 10000'+).

5. Maverick

[S77th-GOYA]

Have an AWACS to tell you which direction he's coming from and a zoomed Mav-D seeker to find him before he's in range for a Vikhr. It's still difficult.

[suntrace1]

Like GG said, fly well above him and shot down with Aim-9. Spotting one is not as easy, but that's what happens in war - people die even if they do everything right.

[Guest Cali]

1. LOOK.

4. Stay well above it, dive in as needed (aka. Start flying at 10000'+).

 

Then he'll have to worry about fast fighters

[rocketeer]

if you face the ka-50 directly, it's vikhr has longer range than your aim-9. it'd shoot you down first. i tried taking cover between hills and pop up near enough to shoot with aim-9 but it's still difficult. it'd fire multiple vikhrs at you which is difficult to evade.

 

now i discovered that i can use the maverick like the ka-50 uses its vikhr. and the maverick has a longer range, about 8.9 nm. since the ka-50 is slow moving, the maverick can hit it. better still, the maverick is fire and forget, while the vikhr is laser guided and needs to be continually lased all the way to the target.

[Muzzlehead]

thanks Guys... makes me feel somewhat better... sounds like the KA 50/52 is a tough bird to face off with in the A10... I thought I just sucked to no end... not that I don't...;)

[GGTharos]

Won't be so tough when BS comes out ... right now the Vikhr is an uber-weapon.

[GGTharos]

Then he'll have to worry about fast fighters

 

You fly above the enemy air defenses, period, unless you have no other choice. Where are his defenders/CAP anyway? ;)

 

He can dive to the weeds pretty quick in any case, and pick up significant speed while at it.

 

This enire 'fly in the weeds' mentality is plain silly ... especially for the 'fast fighers' ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup. Flying in the weeds is a tactic that the US abandoned a LONG time ago. You can't avoid what you can't see, and low-altitude air defenses have a nasty habit of not being seen at all, and then they kill you.

[D-Scythe]

Yup. Flying in the weeds is a tactic that the US abandoned a LONG time ago. You can't avoid what you can't see, and low-altitude air defenses have a nasty habit of not being seen at all, and then they kill you.

 

I thought US strike pilots still practice a bit of low altitude NOE flight, don't they? IMO, there are still *some* advantages to flying low, especially during the ingress if not the actual target run itself (for a non-stealthy fighter).

 

I'd imagine an F-15E/F-16C on a lo-hi-lo profile would be virtually impossible for SAMs/ground EWR to detect, let alone shootdown, during the "lo" portions of their flight profile, so long as they don't directly overfly any enemy military installation (and they likely won't). The enemy can't defend its entire country with Tors and Tunguskas, and flying low ensures safety from long-range SAMs like the S300 series.

 

That is, if the F-22s and F-35s don't get these bigger theatre SAMs first.

[GGTharos]

A few iglas and some cellphones will do the job too you know.

 

Low-flying is meant to avoid theater radars.

 

Unfortunately, down there you'll run into all the flak you can: Troops firing lead at you, AAA guns and SHORAD rapid-fire canons, Iglas, Stingers, and so on and so forth.

 

These defenses are both capable and numerous, and LOMAC doesn't represent a lot of thing - ie. troops with guns, etc. Sure, you can pepper the place with little igla guys - and once the nasty fuel consumption in AB at low level and aerodynamic limitations get worked into the aircraft you own't be able to just go supersonic and evade all the low level Iglas etc either.

 

Not that the latter is an issue in an A-10 ... in an A-10, you go high, end of story. It isn't an F-16 or an F-15, it doesn't operate around theater SAMs if it can help it, and usually flies when there's a good CAP to cover it.

 

No point in getting eaten by an el-cheapo Igla or Stinger in the weeds when you'll do just fine above 12000'.

[D-Scythe]

A few iglas and some cellphones will do the job too you know.

 

Low-flying is meant to avoid theater radars.

 

Unfortunately, down there you'll run into all the flak you can: Troops firing lead at you, AAA guns and SHORAD rapid-fire canons, Iglas, Stingers, and so on and so forth.

 

MANPADS and troops with AKs won't even be able to lift a finger before an F-15E streaking in at 500 mph 200ft above the ground until it's gone.

 

These defenses are both capable and numerous, and LOMAC doesn't represent a lot of thing - ie. troops with guns, etc. Sure, you can pepper the place with little igla guys - and once the nasty fuel consumption in AB at low level and aerodynamic limitations get worked into the aircraft you own't be able to just go supersonic and evade all the low level Iglas etc either.

 

Not that the latter is an issue in an A-10 ... in an A-10, you go high, end of story. It isn't an F-16 or an F-15, it doesn't operate around theater SAMs if it can help it, and usually flies when there's a good CAP to cover it.

 

No point in getting eaten by an el-cheapo Igla or Stinger in the weeds when you'll do just fine above 12000'.

 

Well, I'm gonna restate my opinion that any fighter streaking along at 500 mph would be virtually impossible to intercept with a MANPAD or small arms on a first pass, without prior notice of an incoming jet.

 

Besides, it's not like they're going NOE over the FLOT.

[Guest IguanaKing]

The point of not going in at low altitude has nothing to do with whether or not someone can shoot the plane down before it hits its target. It is simply a matter of survival for the aircraft. If it hits its target before being fired on...that's great...but if it gets nailed right after that, it doesn't do much good. Then, you end up having to put SAR assets into that area, and they are also at HUGE risk of being shot down. IIRC, NOE flight is still done in training missions, just for the pilots to retain the skill if they end up needing it. But, in combat, it is not usually done. Remember, there are all kinds of other nasties out there besides troops with Iglas and AKs. There are also optically guided 23mm guns, 57mm guns...and yes, its not at all uncommon for some random gun to see your approach to the target and proceed to rip you to shreds. Why? Because as difficult as a fast, low-flying aircraft is to spot, its even harder for the pilot of that aircraft to see the gun he's about to inadvertently fly near.

[GGTharos]

MANPADS and troops with AKs won't even be able to lift a finger before an F-15E streaking in at 500 mph 200ft above the ground until it's gone.

 

 

 

Well, I'm gonna restate my opinion that any fighter streaking along at 500 mph would be virtually impossible to intercept with a MANPAD or small arms on a first pass, without prior notice of an incoming jet.

 

Besides, it's not like they're going NOE over the FLOT.

 

That's nice, but entirely wrong. There exist military manuals written for this type of defense. It is REAL and it is EFFECTIVE.

 

You can pick up an aircraft coming in at low altitude at 5km (this includes search time). That gives you plentyof time to warm up your MANPADS and shuut him up the tailpipe, if not head-on.

 

Observation posts are specifically chosen to cover expected avanues of aproach, for one, and people are rotate in every 15 minutes to ensure there's no lapse in scanning due to fatigue.

[Muzzlehead]

again thanks for all the info....

 

but as for the last ... I was in a USMC combat unit back in the early 90's and never have I heard of a guard rotation of 15 minutes... let alone in combat... my experince was (in combat) guard duty (op and such) was longer not shorter... thus we were on alert guarding for 2-3 hours with little if any sleep.... but that was my experince in Korea and the Gulf... maybe it differs elsewhere

[GGTharos]

The person -scanning- for Aircraft is rotated every 15min. So says the procedure. Reality might be differrent.

[D-Scythe]

That's nice, but entirely wrong. There exist military manuals written for this type of defense. It is REAL and it is EFFECTIVE.

 

You can pick up an aircraft coming in at low altitude at 5km (this includes search time). That gives you plentyof time to warm up your MANPADS and shuut him up the tailpipe, if not head-on.

 

Question: Pick him up with what? Troops with MANPADS and small-arms are hardly equipped with a radar or IR sensor of some sort.

 

And another point: it is impossible to cover all ingress routes with MANPADS and troops. Apart from the FLOT, it'd be easy to fly around major enemy military positions without fear of getting shot.

 

Observation posts are specifically chosen to cover expected avanues of aproach, for one, and people are rotate in every 15 minutes to ensure there's no lapse in scanning due to fatigue.

 

Those observation posts are likely gonna be hit quickly in the first minutes of any air campaign anyway.

 

Anyway, I think I know what you're trying to say, and it doesn't necessarily contradict my point. My point is that by flying low for even a few minutes, a flight of strikers can disappear from enemy radar and reappear 20 minutes later and 80 miles away from where they are expected to be. In a scenario where air supremacy have not been established, strikers can fly low during ingress to avoid detection, not avoid getting shot.

 

It cuts down on the amount of time the enemy has to react to the incoming strikers and either prep its longer-range SAMs or vector enemy fighters onto your flight. Sure, there'd be friendly F-15Cs and SEAD around, but it's still safer to remain undetected and unseen by the enemy defenses until you pop up to initiate the attack run. A threat that pops up to high altitudes on radar 30 miles out is a lot harder to defend than one that cruises continuously at high altitude. Once they do have to overfly an enemy military position, to attack it or whatever, then yeah, it'll be a good idea to climb to a higher altitude to avoid SHORADs. The fact that the actual attack run should NOT be at low altitude is something I think we can all agree on.

 

Of course, once air superiority have been established, high skies are the way to go.

[GGTharos]

Mk1 Eyeball. If at night, there do exist NVGs and they will be good enough - yep, performance of the defense is reduced, but not nil.

 

Like I said. NOE flight has its place, but you're still wrong. SHORAD will eat enemy aircraft - this was proven in Vietnam, and other conflicts also.

 

You only need to cover the most likely aproaches, and believe me, it works nicely even in LOMAC ;)

 

You only drop low when the SHORAD threat is less than the high altitude threat, and SHORAD is a -pretty high threat- especially now that the FPA-equipped MANPADS are coming into play.

 

You do -not- fly your sorties NOE 'just because you can'.

And this is -exactly- what people do, and I love it when they run into my SHORAD and get eaten up, then they complain about it ;)

 

Typically the SHORAD will see YOU well before you see IT -especially- when flying low.

 

Pretty bad deal.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup. A HUGE majority of US aircraft lost in Vietnam were lost to "systems" guided by the old fashioned Mk I eyeball. In ODS, two aircraft with the highest loss rates (A-10 and Tornado), were also flown at low altitude. Most of them were also taken out without the use of radar, or any other method which might be defeated by terrain masking. I use a minimum of 14,000' of altitude (weather permitting, of course) in LOMAC, so the guns and other low-altitude systems can't touch me. On some missions, where friendly CAP is particularly effective, killing ground targets actually becomes a bit tedious. But, if it were real life...well...its better to be bored than dead. ;)

[D-Scythe]

Yup. A HUGE majority of US aircraft lost in Vietnam were lost to "systems" guided by the old fashioned Mk I eyeball. In ODS, two aircraft with the highest loss rates (A-10 and Tornado), were also flown at low altitude. Most of them were also taken out without the use of radar, or any other method which might be defeated by terrain masking. I use a minimum of 14,000' of altitude (weather permitting, of course) in LOMAC, so the guns and other low-altitude systems can't touch me. On some missions, where friendly CAP is particularly effective, killing ground targets actually becomes a bit tedious. But, if it were real life...well...its better to be bored than dead. ;)

 

Yeah, but you're leaving out the fact that virtually all the losses aircraft suffered at low altitudes was over the target area or some kind of enemy military position. My point is that flying NOE can help you get within a comfortable range of an enemy military position, stealthily no less, whereby you can then attack it from high altitude.

 

Sure, maybe the strikers would be safer at high altitudes protected by escorts and SEAD aircraft sweeping the skies ahead of them, but flying NOE is an option, and it does have some advantages (as well as disadvantages). I'm just saying that it shouldn't be totally ignored - which it obviously isn't, because U.S. pilots still practice it some.

 

Mk1 Eyeball. If at night, there do exist NVGs and they will be good enough - yep, performance of the defense is reduced, but not nil.

 

You honestly think troops with NVGs, will be able to successfully attack an F-15E streaking in at 500+ mph? NVGs amplify light - in the dark, it would be virtually impossible to see a dark F-15E in a dark sky or terrain until it's way too late, even if you don't factor in the reduced FOV and visual clarity/acuity.

 

You only drop low when the SHORAD threat is less than the high altitude threat, and SHORAD is a -pretty high threat- especially now that the FPA-equipped MANPADS are coming into play.

 

I disagree. In the airspace over 95% of an enemy country, the SHORAD threat is likely to be zero, because even in war there are never enough troops to post all over the country.

 

You do -not- fly your sorties NOE 'just because you can'.

And this is -exactly- what people do, and I love it when they run into my SHORAD and get eaten up, then they complain about it

 

Because you can? Nuh uh, that's not what I meant. Sure, in most situations, flying NOE is not recommended, but if you want to disappear from enemy radar screens for a few minutes, a little NOE sprint over the countryside can give you an element of surprise (provided of course you take advantage of it). Even if you are detected while NOE, you're a lot less vulnerable to theatre SAMs and enemy long-range AAMs (which are more easily dealt with than SHORADs, I agree, as the U.S. is likely to be able to secure air supremacy within the opening days of conflict. But what if you want to hit a heavily defended target before then?).

 

Provided that you NOE for the right reasons, keep your speed up and avoid enemy troop concentrations/SHORADs, I fail to see how you can be intercepted by small arms (from a few scattered soldiers) or MANPADS (probably even more rare) over an "empty" portion of an enemy country. Unless, of course, if the enemy *knows* that you're coming (like using the same ingress routes repeatedly).

[Weta43]

At 500mph you've got a maximum of 45 seconds (assuming he actually flies directly over you) from when he's 5km away coming at you, to when he's 5km away leaving in which to decide he's not one of yours, that you're going to take a shot, pick up the MANPAD, prepare it for use & take the shot.

That's probably do-able if you're on the ball & have the MANPAD sitting next to you - depending on how long it takes to get an igla/stinger ready to use.

Just out of curiosity - does anyone know how long it takes to get a manpad to firing from however they're carried/stored?

[D-Scythe]

At 500mph you've got a maximum of 45 seconds (assuming he actually flies directly over you) from when he's 5km away coming at you, to when he's 5km away leaving in which to decide he's not one of yours, that you're going to take a shot, pick up the MANPAD, prepare it for use & take the shot.

That's probably do-able if you're on the ball & have the MANPAD sitting next to you - depending on how long it takes to get an igla/stinger ready to use.

Just out of curiosity - does anyone know how long it takes to get a manpad to firing from however they're carried/stored?

 

I agree with the 5 km head-on part, but in a tail chase engagement 200 ft off the ground? There's no way you'd get a 5 km range with a rear-aspect shot. I don't think anything shot greater than 2 km would come close, actually.

 

Furthermore, this assumes that the target aircraft passes directly over your position. Chances are that this will not be the case, and the target will be a bit off aspect at first, before the intercept eventually turns into a crossing engagement. Either way you look at it, at best, you have about half a minute (probably less considering you cannot engage the target when it passes over you) to spot, prep, lock, shoot. At worst, probably not more than a couple seconds.

 

Small arms and AAA putting up a wall of fire would probably have a higher chance of bringing such a target down. In any case, IMO, it's highly unlikely any MANPADS soldier would get a good shot off on the target's first pass.

 

Which brings me to my opinion that a NOE fighter is relatively safe from small arms/MANPADS (on its first pass, anyway) unless it directly overflies an enemy troop concentration defended by a Tunguska or Tor SAM - which it can accidentally do, since intel's not always perfect.

[Weta43]

My personal opinion is that 45 seconds is cutting it fine even under optimal conditions, & as you say - if they're not passing directly overhead you've got less time, & if you're limiting a shot at the tail to 2km, well that cuts your time even more. That's what I meant by 'if you're on the ball' - that someone who didn't hesitate at all, had the weapon ready to hand & didn't have to worry about fireing on a friendly might get a shot off, otherwise they'd be too late.

- & best case is assuming that it only takes a few seconds to prepare a MANPAD, which I have no idea about.

I don't think you're 'safe' NOE, but if you're flying over suitable country, taking the right route & if no one knows you were coming, it probably isn't suicidal. If your side doesn't have air superiority it might be a better bet than risking taking on a couple of fighters.

[GGTharos]

Yes, troops with NVGs CAN pick up enemy aircraft coming in. Over your own territory, you may even have lookouts in the villages 10km around you who'll call you on your cell, but let's say you do not.

 

You have the SHORAD belt around your target at 10and 5km. They'll talk to each other.

 

If the first belt can't take the shot, the second one probably -can-.

This is how it's supposed to work, and it -does- work. It's called defense in depth.

 

A Stinger RMP is capable of reaching out and touching a target as small as a cruise missile with the engagement beginning at 9km (but these are typically cued in from a Sentinel)

 

And I'll remind you that -loads- of cruise missiles have been shot down by SHORAD, despite eing as fast, but smaller than an F-15E ... and certainly much less noisy, and they do NOT require a pop-up for attack until the aircraft itself - I have a squadmate who is with the US ARMY AD, doing specifically SHORAD with the avenger and stinger teams, and they'll happily blow up anything heading for whatever they're defending.

 

Cruise missiles will be taken on head-on if possible, tail-on otherwise. Aircraft will be taken on prefferably when they pop-up.

 

Once you spot the target, your cold Stinger takes some six to ten seconds to warm up and aim. We could say 20 and be safe. That gives you 20 seconds to spot the aircraft (head on) at 5km in a relatively small sector of a sky (lookouts are given small sectors to look out for each). You've got your lookouts, and then you've got the guy sitting beside the stinger at a suitable spot to shoot from. Once you call out 'plane' he'll be ready to attack in a few seconds, and you can talk him onto the enemy aircraft quickly. Even if he doesn't spot it, he can wait for it to fly overhead and shoot it up the tailpipe.

 

Thinking that SHORAD won't be an issue when flying NOE is simply suicidal. You could get lucky and enemy defense might be poor, disorgazined, and possibly even known and obvious.

 

But it has been -clearly- demonstrated that it doesn't need to be this way.