New D-9 FM since 2.0?

[Hummingbird]

Seems like maybe you werent going fast enough to gain the advantage, no?

 

I was staying at the speeds specified in Yo Yo's charts at being the best turning speeds for the Dora, speeds at which the Mustang shouldn't be able to match its rate. Yet Crumpp easily hung in there.

 

But there are more videos to come.

[NineLine]

I was staying at the speeds specified in Yo Yo's charts at being the best turning speeds for the Dora, speeds at which the Mustang shouldn't be able to match its rate. Yet Crumpp easily hung in there.

 

But there are more videos to come.

 

But the chart above Yo-Yo just posted shows the Dora and Mustang near even at 350kph, correct?

[Hummingbird]

But the chart above Yo-Yo just posted shows the Dora and Mustang near even at 350kph, correct?

 

It shows the Dora to be superior across the board in sustained turns, but at 350 km/h he was even more easily able to stay on my six. Infact it felt like turning at 350 km/h IAS led to a lower ROT than when turning at 380 km/h IAS.

 

According to Yo Yo's charts Crumpp should've struggled to stay on my tail whilst I should've been gaining on him ever so slightly from turn to turn. Yet ingame atm Crumpp doesn't break a sweat just hanging there behind me whilst I try my best turning at speeds from 360 to 410 km/h. He could at anytime simply turn inside me and shoot me down if he wished.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Hummingbird

[NineLine]

But understand where I am coming from, I cant report feelings, the video right there shows pretty much what the above chart shows...

[Hummingbird]

But understand where I am coming from, I cant report feelings, the video right there shows pretty much what the above chart shows...

 

No feeling involved. It doesn't show what the charts are telling us, it shows him easily staying on my six in the sustained turns and not falling behind in the circle. According to Yo Yo's charts I should actually be gaining on him slightly with every completed turn, yet instead Crumpp was able to just sit there behind me and could at any point pull deflection for a gun solution.

[ShadowFrost]

Understanding what Yo-yo's chart shows it would be better for you to test at both higher and slower speeds to see if it matches equally throughout the ranges of speed? I am unable to watch the video at the current moment but I would think it could also depend on how hard your running the engines and their ability to sustain their energy. I think the two of you should trade places to see if it is not because of one pilot being generally better at flying a certain aircraft.

[NineLine]

No feeling involved. It doesn't show what the charts are telling us, it shows him easily staying on my six in the sustained turns and not falling behind in the circle. According to Yo Yo's charts I should actually be gaining on him slightly with every completed turn, yet instead Crumpp was able to just sit there behind me and could at any point pull deflection for a gun solution.

 

Ok, but the dev of the FM replied as well and said its fine, what he saw in your video... so there is that. I guess keep trying, but so far nothing to report that I can see.

[Hummingbird]

In the video I am actually trying to do what Yo Yo's charts are telling me to do here (i.e. try to maintain 365-380 km/h in the turn):

 

 

[Hummingbird]

Ok, but the dev of the FM replied as well and said its fine, what he saw in your video... so there is that. I guess keep trying, but so far nothing to report that I can see.

 

Very odd I have to say. I think the video is being misinterpreted here as him not being able to get guns on me when he was infact easily able to do so the entire time.

 

Remember we weren't going to shoot each other down here. This was pure testing, no guns involved.

[NineLine]

Very odd I have to say. I think the video is being misinterpreted here as him not being able to get guns on me when he was infact easily able to do so the entire time.

 

Remember we weren't going to shoot each other down here. This was pure testing, no guns involved.

 

I didnt say anything about shooting, what I saw was him following you through a sustained turn at 350kph, according to the chart Yo-Yo shared above, you were doing pretty much what it shows, you both looked to be performing similar.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

No feeling involved. It doesn't show what the charts are telling us, it shows him easily staying on my six in the sustained turns and not falling behind in the circle. According to Yo Yo's charts I should actually be gaining on him slightly with every completed turn, yet instead Crumpp was able to just sit there behind me and could at any point pull deflection for a gun solution.

 

Sith,

 

just as a better way to evaluate what speed ( IAS ) the aircraft is actually being flown at, don't look at the ASI but rather at the INFO BAR at the bottom... You'l see it seldom ( if ever ? ) goes down to 350 km/h

[Hummingbird]

I didnt say anything about shooting, what I saw was him following you through a sustained turn at 350kph, according to the chart Yo-Yo shared above, you were doing pretty much what it shows, you both looked to be performing similar.

 

I wasn't going at 350 at any point, I was following his chart's recommendation of staying between 365 to 380 km/h. Also again, according to Yo Yo's chart I would actually be slightly outturning him at all these speeds: 350, 365 or 380, yet he could at any point turn inside me the entire time at all those speeds. At no speed could I pull enough rate to prevent him from maintaining a gun solution.

 

If this isn't a discrepancy from the very charts Yo Yo himself has provided I don't know what else to tell you.

[Hummingbird]

Sith,

 

just as a better way to evaluate what speed ( IAS ) the aircraft is actually being flown at, don't look at the ASI but rather at the INFO BAR at the bottom... You'l see it seldom ( if ever ? ) goes down to 350 km/h

 

Exactly. Going to 350 km/h and my turn rate would actually slow down and Crumpp would have to throttle down to keep from overrunning me.

 

The Dora's best turn speed ingame atm seems to be 380 km/h IAS, trying to maintain 350 km/h slows the turn rate down.

[NineLine]

Sith,

 

just as a better way to evaluate what speed ( IAS ) the aircraft is actually being flown at, don't look at the ASI but rather at the INFO BAR at the bottom... You'l see it seldom ( if ever ? ) goes down to 350 km/h

 

Regardless, the differences at those speeds are minimal according to the chart, and I really didnt see anything in the vid to suggest anything was majorly wrong.... I mean we also couldnt see the speed of the Mustang either.

[Crumpp]

It will become clearer when I get back and post the Mustang POV video.

 

The Mustang simply cannot sustain (+)3G at 200 knots yet it is doing it.

 

Unfortunately, I had to leave for work and won't be home to finish the 900MB worth of traps footage for the next 4 days.

[Hummingbird]

Regardless, the differences at those speeds are minimal according to the chart, and I really didnt see anything in the vid to suggest anything was majorly wrong.... I mean we also couldnt see the speed of the Mustang either.

 

Crumpp said he could maintain a steady solution on me the entire time, he didn't feel he was at all struggling to keep up or anywhere near the P-51's limits. Yet there I am at my best rate around 365-380 km/h not able to turn any faster.

 

That is not what the chart says, at all. If anything he should be gradually falling behind in the turn, yet he never did.

[NineLine]

Have you guys thought about exporting and showing a graph of these flights, might show better what you think you are seeing.

[Hummingbird]

It's very simply really, as Crumpp said I was pulling ~3 Gs most of the time, something the P-51 simply shouldn't be able to match yet it is, and then some!

[Hummingbird]

That being said, I was actually not able to achieve the sustained G's specified on Yo Yo's chart here:

 

I've tested it extensively and I can maintain 2.8 Gs at 380 km/h at SL. According to the chart below I should be able to maintain 3.25 Gs at that speed.

 

So it's apparently not only the Mustang which is performing differently.

 

Note: Everyone is able to test this for themselves.

[westr]

Hi Westr,

 

Just thinking, if you could regularly take on 4 Mustangs with success in a single Dora, would that perhaps suggest that the Dora simulation was over-performing or the Mustang was under-performing in some way?

I suppose it depends on how we might measure success; like shoot all the enemy down, just survive to land or bail out after shooting a couple down, or something else.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Not always shooting down 4 mustangs but say taking down two and evading getting my arse shot down, against say two set to high and two set to good. Although there has been a couple of occasions where I got 4 and didn't run out of ammo. But as I say in 2.0 despite desperately trying to avoid a turning fight I'm struggling.

[Yo-Yo]

Do not trust these diagrams too much :) it is a quite old tool for estimation of maneouverability using very short list of input parametres. It works more or less accurate for the middle-class planes but for the high power engines the prop section gives not accurate results. I posted these charts mostly to show the common dependance on changing input parametres.

 

In this chart Mustang suffers lack of prop power.

[Hummingbird]

Do not trust these diagrams too much :) it is a quite old tool for estimation of maneouverability using very short list of input parametres. It works more or less accurate for the middle-class planes but for the high power engines the prop section gives not accurate results. I posted these charts mostly to show the common dependance on changing input parametres.

 

In this chart Mustang suffers lack of prop power.

 

What about the chart you just posted then?

 

Crumpp did some diagrams too:

 

These are based on real world data, and again the Mustang simply shouldn't be able to keep up.

[NineLine]

These are based on real world data, and again the Mustang simply shouldn't be able to keep up.

 

 

Unless I am missing something, that isnt what he is saying here though?

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2367666&postcount=78

 

Bottom line is these two designs are very evenly matched in terms of level sustained turn performance. It comes down simply to the skill of the pilot.

[Yo-Yo]

What about the chart you just posted then?

 

Crumpp did some diagrams too:

 

These are based on real world data, and again the Mustang simply shouldn't be able to keep up.

 

What kind of data? Prop efficiency, L/D polars? Cooling losses? What was the source of the data?

 

And, by the way, I already see the major simplification for this diagram...

[Hummingbird]

Unless I am missing something, that isnt what he is saying here though?

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2367666&postcount=78

 

Then you are missing something :D

 

As clearly depicted on the charts, as well as mentioned by Crumpp, the Dora possesses a turn rate advantage. Thus as long as the Dora doesn't try to maintain a sustained turn below 150-160 knots or so, then it should outturn the P-51.

 

As you can see on the chart the Dora can sustain a 3.3 G turn where'as the P-51D can only sustain a 2.9 G turn. The min turn radius happens at ~165 knots for the Dora and at ~150 knots for the P-51.