HOTAS functions - RL vs DCS

[Flagrum]

When I was flipping through the french RL manual (avialogs.com), I noticed some discrepancies about the HOTAS. It is very possible that my lack of french language skills and also my lack of knowledge about the M2KC is responsible for that. But nevertheless, I want to share my findings here, to find out what is what ... or what is right and what is wrong. :o)

 

Please note:

- source of the screenshots is the french RL manual. The quality is ... miserable at best.

- I used google translate - IF I could decipher the text ... if not - or if google made no sense to me - I marked these with "????".

- MY additions are all in red

- everything in blue is taken from RAZBAMs beta manual (some translations and the reference numbers)

- If you find translation errors - please let me know!

 

If you now look at my screenshots and compare the items (blue circles with number in it) with those of the DCS manual:

 

Stick:

(1) Canon Trigger. Seems to be a cannon-only trigger (interestingly a 2-stage trigger for activating the gun cam ... even when safety is on?). In DCS the trigger also acts as what is otherwise known as "Weapon Release" (see also Stick(4) )

(3) Trim hat. Operation when AP enabled is probably WIP.

(4) "BRM" button - this is probably the equivallent to "Weapon Release" (as opposed to the gun trigger)? I remember Zeus speaking of it in the context of automatic release in CCRP mode.

In DCS this is "Dispense Flares" - which I could not find anywhere in the RL manual

My assumption: subject to WIP

(5) I don't really know what to make out of this. But it looks more complex than the three "Weapon System CMD" options in the DCS manual.

(8) Alternate radio ("auxillary radio"?). Is this a PPT for one of the radios? See also Throttle(1) which reads also "alternate radio". How does one switch to the other radio??

The DCS manual says this is the Radar Lock button.

 

 

Throttle:

(1) Alternate radio. See also Stick(8). In DCS, this is supposed to be a "Radio Selector" - but has two functions to be assigned to it (instead of a toggle function). But then, how does the pilot know which radio is currently selected? I found no indicator for that ...?

(2) My interpretation: "Engine Restart Button". In the DCS manual it is labeled as "Decoy release" and the "Engine Restart Button" is located to the left of the throttle. ... which is in turn - according the the RL manual - the "Fuel aid manipulator" (google translate. my interpretation: something to increase fuel flow before trying to relight the engine?)

(3) (5) (7) could not dechiper all the text. Regarding (7) - this is probably all very WIP.

(8) Interestingly there seem to be different modes of operation when in A/A or A/G mode?

(6) A rocker switch to switch between three(!) functions: "Select Cannon", "Select MAGIC" and "Select PCA" (my assumption: activate the weapon

currently selectedat the PCA). The DCS manual does not state that third option.

And in-game, "Cannon Select" activates the gun, whereas "MAGIC Select" toggles between Cannon and MAGIC? (or was just my cannon the active PCA weapon? hrm ...)

Edited December 27, 2015 by Flagrum

[some1]

Interesting. So the magic/cannons switch is a rocker switch, similar to the dogfight/mrm override switch on the f16 throttle

[Zeus67]

When I was flipping through the french RL manual (avialogs.com), I noticed some discrepancies about the HOTAS. It is very possible that my lack of french language skills and also my lack of knowledge about the M2KC is responsible for that. But nevertheless, I want to share my findings here, to find out what is what ... or what is right and what is wrong. :o)

 

Please note:

- source of the screenshots is the french RL manual. The quality is ... miserable at best.

- I used google translate - IF I could decipher the text ... if not - or if google made no sense to me - I marked these with "????".

- MY additions are all in red

- everything in blue is taken from RAZBAMs beta manual (some translations and the reference numbers)

- If you find translation errors - please let me know!

 

If you now look at my screenshots and compare the items (blue circles with number in it) with those of the DCS manual:

 

Okay, let's go together.

 

Stick:

(1) Canon Trigger. Seems to be a cannon-only trigger (interestingly a 2-stage trigger for activating the gun cam ... even when safety is on?). In DCS the trigger also acts as what is otherwise known as "Weapon Release" (see also Stick(4) )

Only one trigger that fires everything. It is actually called MICROB in the manual.

 

(3) Trim hat. Operation when AP enabled is probably WIP.

AFAIK, trim is operational, including on AP.

 

(4) "BRM" button - this is probably the equivallent to "Weapon Release" (as opposed to the gun trigger)? I remember Zeus speaking of it in the context of automatic release in CCRP mode.

That is something else. Unfortunately my development PC is still busted so I cannot access my notes. I'll identify it as soon as I can.

 

In DCS this is "Dispense Flares" - which I could not find anywhere in the RL manual

My assumption: subject to WIP

 

Ok. We'll let them go for the moment.

 

(5) I don't really know what to make out of this. But it looks more complex than the three "Weapon System CMD" options in the DCS manual.

This is a very hard to code button. It is not a button. It is a combination rocker switch/button with forward/backwards/click down movements.

 

One click forwards does one thing

two clicks forward does another thing

one click down does yet another one

one click backwards does one thing

two clicks backwards does another one.

 

All of these movements are radar/weapons related.

 

(8) Alternate radio ("auxillary radio"?). Is this a PPT for one of the radios? See also Throttle(1) which reads also "alternate radio". How does one switch to the other radio??

The DCS manual says this is the Radar Lock button.

I cannot say without my notes, sorry.

 

Throttle:

(1) Alternate radio. See also Stick(8). In DCS, this is supposed to be a "Radio Selector" - but has two functions to be assigned to it (instead of a toggle function). But then, how does the pilot know which radio is currently selected? I found no indicator for that ...?

By feel. This is a rocker switch. When one radio is operational, one part of the switch is sticking out, the other one is flush with the handle. So you know by feel which radio is being used.

 

FYI: Main radio is the V/UHF, the one that can manually change frequencies.

 

(2) My interpretation: "Engine Restart Button". In the DCS manual it is labeled as "Decoy release" and the "Engine Restart Button" is located to the left of the throttle. ... which is in turn - according the the RL manual - the "Fuel aid manipulator" (google translate. my interpretation: something to increase fuel flow before trying to relight the engine?)

Nope. It is decoy release button. Unfortunately that is all we know about the button , there is another decoy release in the stick as well.

 

(3) (5) (7) could not dechiper all the text. Regarding (7) - this is probably all very WIP.

(8) Interestingly there seem to be different modes of operation when in A/A or A/G mode?

I need my notes, I need my notes. AAARRGHHH!

 

(6) A rocker switch to switch between three(!) functions: "Select Cannon", "Select MAGIC" and "Select PCA" (my assumption: activate the weapon

currently selectedat the PCA). The DCS manual does not state that third option.

And in-game, "Cannon Select" activates the gun, whereas "MAGIC Select" toggles between Cannon and MAGIC? (or was just my cannon the active PCA weapon? hrm ...)

This is the Close Combat Mode selector.

Select Cannon: Selects AA gun in close combat mode

Select Magic: Selects Magic in close combat mode

Select PCA (default): You must use the armament panel to select a weapon/gun mode.

 

FYI: PCA = Poste Commande de Armament (Armament Control Panel)

[TomCatMucDe]

I can probably help a bit with the question marks:

 

5: Palette lance-leurre -> decoy selector

Réarme (not sure) -> rearm

Cde phare police -> police spot light (Cde stands for code)

 

7:

Air-Air: ralliement -> regrouping

Navigation: recalage oblique -> hard to translate, maybe somebody has an idea

Approche: effacement ILS -> Approach: ILS erasing or delete or cancel

[Zeus67]

Navigation: recalage oblique

INS recalibration.

[Dusty [CPC]]

Hey guys,

 

I'm actually surprised at the discrepancies between this manual exctract and the DCS Manual HOTAS page.

Some major ones like the lock button especially? DCS has it on the stick, while this manual has it on the push button from the TDC ("alidade radar").

Will the DCS manual be updated to stick closer to real life ergonomics?

The other major one for me is the "commande temps réel SNA", not described at all in the same way in the DCS manual.

[jojo]

Hey guys,

 

I'm actually surprised at the discrepancies between this manual exctract and the DCS Manual HOTAS page.

Some major ones like the lock button especially? DCS has it on the stick, while this manual has it on the push button from the TDC ("alidade radar").

Will the DCS manual be updated to stick closer to real life ergonomics?

The other major one for me is the "commande temps réel SNA", not described at all in the same way in the DCS manual.

 

This extract is from older Mirage 2000 C RDM manual.

 

Some functionalities changed with RDI...

[some1]

Z

This is a very hard to code button. It is not a button. It is a combination rocker switch/button with forward/backwards/click down movements.

 

One click forwards does one thing

two clicks forward does another thing

one click down does yet another one

one click backwards does one thing

two clicks backwards does another one.

 

All of these movements are radar/weapons related.

 

Doesn't sound that difficult:

 

One shortcut key moves the rocker one notch forward per key press.

One shortcut key moves the rocker one notch backwards per key press.

 

So if you move the rocker forward then one press of the "back"key will bring the switch to neutral, the next press will move it one notch back, another press of the back key will move it to the rearmost position.

 

If implemented this way, it can easily be assigned to hotas warthog cms switch or any other joystick hat.

Edited December 27, 2015 by some1

[sedenion]

Some translation:

 

Stick:

 

1) Aiming/Targeting* recorder & Canons trigger (Enregistreur de visée & détente canons)

 

2) MAGIC Search tappet / Vertical realignment ( Poussoir recherche MAGIC / Recalage vertical)

 

3) Trim manipulator : (Manipulateur Trim)

Autopilot Off : Trim pitch and roll (PA hors Service: Trim profondeur et gauchissement)

Autopilot ON : AP controlled Pitch and AP controlled route (PA en service: pente commandée PA, route commandée PA)

 

4) BRM fire tappet and Aiming/Targeting* recorder (Poussoir tir BRM et enregistreur de visée)

5) SNA real-time commands (Commande temps réel SNA)

-AIR-AIR(AIR-AIR)

--AXIS aiming (Pointage AXE)

--neutral (neutre)

--Radar Unlock (Décrochage radar)

--Sight field or plane of symmetry (Champ viseur ou plan de symétrie)

-AIR-GROUND (AIR-SOL)

--Selected AIR-GROUND (AIR-SOL selectionné)

--neutral (neutre)

--Inactive (Inactif)

--Preselected AIR-GROUND or Memorized AIR-GROUND (AIR-SOL préselectionné ou AIR-SOL mémorisé)

 

6) Canons fire (Tir canons) / Aiming/Targeting* recorder (Enregistreur de visée)

 

7) AP deconnection trigger (Gachette de déconnexion PA)

 

8 ) Radio Commutator/Switch (Alternat Radio) [NDT: i think "alternat" is an abreviation for "Alternateur" => Commutator/Switch]

 

9) AP disengagement pallet (Palette débrayage PA)

 

10) Tappet (Poussoir)

- Flight: IFF interrogation (Vol: Interrogation IFF)

- Ground: NWS (Sol: DIRAV)

 

* "visée" can be translated as "Aiming" or "Targeting" depending the context, even if the better translation for "targeting" is "ciblage"... One thing is sure, here we speak about aiming or targeting or sight.

 

I come back later with throttle translation (i have to eat something, NOW !)

Edited December 27, 2015 by sedenion

[Azrayen]

(3) Trim hat. Operation when AP enabled is probably WIP.

AFAIK, trim is operational, including on AP.

Nope, when AP is engaged, the trim hat should control the AP heading (left/right) and AP climb/descent path/gradient. I'll come back to you about this :)

 

(4) "BRM" button - this is probably the equivallent to "Weapon Release" (as opposed to the gun trigger)?

Yes, BRM stands for Bombes Roquettes Missiles (translation easy ;)); but as jojo said, some functions were changed from the old RDM (that the FR manual describes), this is one of them.

 

( 8 ) Alternate radio ("auxillary radio"?). Is this a PPT for one of the radios? See also Throttle(1) which reads also "alternate radio". How does one switch to the other radio??

The DCS manual says this is the Radar Lock button.

I cannot say without my notes, sorry.

Nope, this one is a false friend. Alternat (without final 'e') stands in French for a sort of switch. Yes, basically what the manual describes is a PTT. Nothing to go with primary/auxilliary.

On the RDM (the one that goes with the FR manual), selecting which radio emitted was done by pressing on the radio volume control on the SIB. I'll need to check if this has changed since: Razbam's implementation is different.

 

(3) (5) (7) could not dechiper all the text. Regarding (7) - this is probably all very WIP.

I need my notes, I need my notes. AAARRGHHH!

5- reads "Palette lance-leurres (réserve) et Cde phare police". Cde is short for Commande (Control, Switch) and not Code (sorry TomCatMucDe).

The (réserve) means that the function ("Palette lance-leurres" => decoys trigger) was not activated at the time where the manual was written. The other function is to light the "Phare police" (police searchlight) (the switch on the left console enables the light, but only when you press this trigger it's actually lightened => HOTAS concept ;))

 

6- reads "Sélecteur armement" you got that right; refer to Razbam's manual, nothing to add.

 

7- already answered; I'll just precise that "Navigation: recalage oblique" is indeed about INS recalibration (as said by Zeus), but the "oblique" part refers to a mode in which you don't need to overfly your recalibration point (that would be "recalage vertical"), but instead fly along it so the line between your aircraft and the point is "oblique" (bevel, slanting).

 

 

FYI: PCA = Poste Commande de Armament (Armament Control Panel)

Nitpicking... it's Poste de Commande Armement; not the other way around ;)

 

++

Az'

[Flagrum]

Thanks everyone so far!

 

The RDM aspect probably makes a lot of sense when trying to find an explanation for some discrepancies. Functions directly or indirectly related to radar functionality could probably be affected (i.e. mode related like Stick(5) or Throttle(8), perhaps even the radar lock stuff).

 

Thanks!

[sedenion]

Some translation:

 

Stick:

 

1) Aiming/Targeting* recorder & Canons trigger (Enregistreur de visée & détente canons)

 

2) MAGIC Search tappet / Vertical realignment ( Poussoir recherche MAGIC / Recalage vertical)

 

3) Trim manipulator : (Manipulateur Trim)

Autopilot Off : Trim pitch and roll (PA hors Service: Trim profondeur et gauchissement)

Autopilot ON : AP controlled Pitch and AP controlled route (PA en service: pente commandée PA, route commandée PA)

 

4) BRM fire tappet and Aiming/Targeting* recorder (Poussoir tir BRM et enregistreur de visée)

5) SNA real-time commands (Commande temps réel SNA)

-AIR-AIR(AIR-AIR)

--AXIS aiming (Pointage AXE)

--neutral (neutre)

--Radar Unlock (Décrochage radar)

--Sight field or plane of symmetry (Champ viseur ou plan de symétrie)

-AIR-GROUND (AIR-SOL)

--Selected AIR-GROUND (AIR-SOL selectionné)

--neutral (neutre)

--Inactive (Inactif)

--Preselected AIR-GROUND or Memorized AIR-GROUND (AIR-SOL préselectionné ou AIR-SOL mémorisé)

 

6) Canons fire (Tir canons) / Aiming/Targeting* recorder (Enregistreur de visée)

 

7) AP deconnection trigger (Gachette de déconnexion PA)

 

8 ) Radio Commutator/Switch (Alternat Radio)

 

9) AP disengagement pallet (Palette débrayage PA)

 

10) Tappet (Poussoir)

- Flight: IFF interrogation (Vol: Interrogation IFF)

- Ground: NWS (Sol: DIRAV)

 

* "visée" can be translated as "Aiming" or "Targeting" depending the context, even if the better translation for "targeting" is "ciblage"... One thing is sure, here we speak about aiming or targeting or sight.

 

I come back later with throttle translation (i have to eat something, NOW !)

 

Suite et fin...

 

Throtthle:

 

1) Radio Commutator/Switch (Alternat Radio)

 

2) Engine calculator rearmement (reset?) tappet (Poussoir réarmement calculateur moteur)

 

3) Alidade (TDC) Manipulator / Radar Lock (Manipulateur alidade/Accrochage radar)

- Left (G)

- Up (H)

--- Locking (Accrochage)

- Right (D)

- Down (B)

 

4) Airbrakes Manipulator (Manipulateur aérofreins)

 

5) decoys launcher and Police Light Ctrl [Control] pallet (Palette lance-leurres et Cde phare de police) [NDT: see Azrayen previous post for "Cde" and "Réserve" detail explanation]

 

6) Weapon selector (Sélecteur armement)

6 a) AIR CANNONS (CANONS AIR)

6 b) PCA Selection (Selection PCA)

6 c) MAGIC (MAGIC)

7) SNA pallet: (Palette SNA: )

- AIR-AIR: rally (ralliement)

- NAVIGATION: sideways realignment (recallage oblique)

- APPROACH: ILS ereasing (effacement ILS) [NDT: NOT SURE!]

- AIR-GROUND: designation (désignation)

 

8 ) Antenna alignment manipulator (Manipulateur calage antenne)

- Radar A/A: Elevation or Z goal (Site ou Z but)

- Radar A/S: Elevation or Delta-H guard plane (Site ou Delta-H plan de garde)

Edited December 27, 2015 by sedenion

[Azrayen]

sedenion, alternat est un nom commun, pas une abréviation !

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/alternat

[sedenion]

sedenion, alternat est un nom commun, pas une abréviation !

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/alternat

 

Ah ben là tu m'apprends un truc en effet ! :p

[sedenion]

This is the Close Combat Mode selector.

Select Cannon: Selects AA gun in close combat mode

Select Magic: Selects Magic in close combat mode

Select PCA (default): You must use the armament panel to select a weapon/gun mode.

 

To be precise, as i understand it, the Weapon Selector is an override function:

Defaut: Weapon is selected according the PCA

Pushed to right: Overrides the PCA to select Air-Air Gun

Pushed to left: Overrides the PCA to select MAGIC

 

That mean, when we go back to center, we go back to the weapon selected in the PCA, whatever it was.

[Dusty [CPC]]

This extract is from older Mirage 2000 C RDM manual.

 

Some functionalities changed with RDI...

Ah gotcha. Fair enough, although I feel these changes are somehow a downgrade in ergonomics...

[jojo]

No, in the end it will make sense.

 

But right now it's unfinished...

 

Guys, this beta :joystick:

[some1]

To be precise, as i understand it, the Weapon Selector is an override function:

Defaut: Weapon is selected according the PCA

Pushed to right: Overrides the PCA to select Air-Air Gun

Pushed to left: Overrides the PCA to select MAGIC

 

That mean, when we go back to center, we go back to the weapon selected in the PCA, whatever it was.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Flagrum]

To be precise, as i understand it, the Weapon Selector is an override function:

Defaut: Weapon is selected according the PCA

Pushed to right: Overrides the PCA to select Air-Air Gun

Pushed to left: Overrides the PCA to select MAGIC

 

That mean, when we go back to center, we go back to the weapon selected in the PCA, whatever it was.

I thought the pictures showed that you depress both sides of the rocker switch simutaneously to activate PCA. But what you say makes much more sense. The rocker switch acts probably as a 3-way switch: left-middle-right.

 

To simulate this behaviour, we would need several actions in the input config luas. Currently we have:

{down = iCommandPlaneModeCannon, name = "Cannon Select", category = "HOTAS"},

{down = iCommandPlaneModeFI0, name = 'Magic II Select', category = 'HOTAS'},

 

but we would need for on-off-on type switches (Warthog):

{down = iCommandPlaneModeCannon, up = iCommandSelectPCA, name = 'Select Cannon', category = 'HOTAS'},

{down = iCommandPlaneModeFI0, up = iCommandSelectPCA, name = 'Magic II Select', category = 'HOTAS'},

 

but also for simple buttons iCommand functions that toggles between Cannon/PCA and Magic/PCA where one overrides the other that for example G940 users can bind to two separate buttons (as opposed to having a separate thrird button for PCA).

Example:

Press button A -> Cannon active

press button A again -> cannon deactive, PCA active

press button A once more -> cannon active again

press button B -> cannon deactive, Magic active

and so on...

[sedenion]

I thought the pictures showed that you depress both sides of the rocker switch simutaneously to activate PCA. But what you say makes much more sense. The rocker switch acts probably as a 3-way switch: left-middle-right.

 

To simulate this behaviour, we would need several actions in the input config luas. Currently we have:

{down = iCommandPlaneModeCannon, name = "Cannon Select", category = "HOTAS"},

{down = iCommandPlaneModeFI0, name = 'Magic II Select', category = 'HOTAS'},

 

but we would need for on-off-on type switches (Warthog):

{down = iCommandPlaneModeCannon, up = iCommandSelectPCA, name = 'Select Cannon', category = 'HOTAS'},

{down = iCommandPlaneModeFI0, up = iCommandSelectPCA, name = 'Magic II Select', category = 'HOTAS'},

 

but also for simple buttons iCommand functions that toggles between Cannon/PCA and Magic/PCA where one overrides the other that for example G940 users can bind to two separate buttons (as opposed to having a separate thrird button for PCA).

Example:

Press button A -> Cannon active

press button A again -> cannon deactive, PCA active

press button A once more -> cannon active again

press button B -> cannon deactive, Magic active

and so on...

 

I just don't understand what you are saying :D

 

To me, the picture let thinking this this is a 3 position switch left-middle-right instead of a 2 positions left-right (with automatic return to middle).

 

Currently, Zeus programmed it as PCA's shortcuts (2 positions left-right (with automatic return to middle)), and the PCA's previous selection is not memorized, i don't know if this is the real behaviour... The important thing to know is: What happens when we come back to the middle position (and is this come back automatic or manual):

 

(1) Manual return to midde: We return to the previously selected weapon in the PCA and PCA is no more overrided.

(2) Automatic return to middle: Nothing happen, but you can (must) change weapons on the PCA

 

If (1), the commands must be little reprogrammed by Razbam, and we should have a new "Return to PCA selection" commands with the currents "Magic II select" and "A-A Gun select".

If (2), the current behaviour is allready the good one programmed by Razbam

 

In first impression the image let me think that the real behavior is more like (1): We return to the previously selected weapon in the PCA, since this switch is an override, and not a shortcut for PCA selection. Why i think that ? Because:

if this switch were only 2 positions with automatic return to middle, the "middle" position would not be showed and documented in the picture, since it's implicit that in the "middle" position "nothing happen"... but here, the middle position is explicitely documented as "PCA selection", which seem to tell us that it is in fact a 3 position switch.

Edited December 28, 2015 by sedenion

[Flagrum]

Currently, Zeus programmed it as PCA's shortcuts (2 positions left-right (with automatic return to middle)), and the PCA's previous selection is not memorized, i don't know if this is the real behaviour...

 

(...)

 

(2) Automatic return to middle: Nothing happen, but you can (must) change weapons on the PCA

 

(...)

 

If (2), the current behaviour is allready the good one programmed by Razbam

Currently in DCS implemented is this:

Button A: toggle between MAGIC and CANNON

Button B: activate CANNON

 

It could be that the logic for A is in fact "toggle between MAGIC and PCA without memorizing previous selection and thus defaulting to CANNON." But the end result is the same for the pilot.

 

What is missing in either case is the return to PCA or CANNON when deactivating the "SelectCannon" function.

 

Regarding "(2) automatic return to middle": that would mean, the pilot would have to keep the rocker depressed ... while using the MAGIC - or worse, while engaging with the cannon. Seems unlikely to me.

 

And regarding the memorization of the previous PCA selection: without it, it would make not much sense, wouldn't it? As explained above, if there is no difference between CANNON and PCA-defaulting-to-CANNON ... then where is the point? :o)

Edited December 28, 2015 by Flagrum

[sedenion]

Regarding "(2) automatic return to middle": that would mean, the pilot would have to keep the rocker depressed ... while using the MAGIC - or worse, while engaging with the cannon. Seems unlikely to me.

 

We can imagine that left and right position are just shortcuts for PCA buttons... (this is how Razbam programmed it currently), but i don't think this is the real behaviour... since the "middle position" documented as "PCA selection" would be a non-sens in this case.

 

And regarding the memorization of the previous PCA selection: without it, it would make not much sense, wouldn't it?

 

Yes the PCA memorization is a more intelligent behaviour and make more sense.

[sedenion]

And here is the translated (as close as possible to the original french version) diagrams, enjoy:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=131514&stc=1&d=1451304750

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=131515&stc=1&d=1451304750

[ckelly14]

All that being said...

 

How would you recommend setting up my X-52 to currently best emulate the M2000 HOTAS? I want to be able to quickly switch to the magic and cannons when there is rapidly approaching bandits. I have a joystick button programmed to "cannons" and one to "weapons switch" but the former stays on cannons and the later is non-functional.

 

Thanks.

[Azrayen]

Those controls are inherited from FC-based aircraft.

There should be an update soon. My guess is that "weapons switch" (D) will be removed, as no such thing in the Mirage.