look down / shoot down realistic?

[jaguara5]

I remember Zeus said in a post, commenting an intercept video he posted on YouTube, that the biggest mistake you can do when the target is starting the beaming turn, is to fly straight ahead to him. After experimenting in 1 vs 1 bvr engagements against AI, and without having the technical knowledge, I have found that I can maintain in most cases the radar lock, by turning about 20 deg to the side, the target is commencing his defensive turn, and loosing some altitude.

[LuSi_6]

you turn to the side the target is turning or the opposite side first?

[jaguara5]

I turn to the side the contact in the radar screen is pointing. 15 - 20 deg . offset

you have to commence the turn /dive as soon as the target is starting the turn, otherwise contact is lost.

Edited January 12, 2016 by jaguara5

[sedenion]

Note: I experienced lock lost even on non-manoeuvring targets...

[TomCatMucDe]

i guess the point of the moneuver is to deny him to fly at 90 degrees to you, by turning in the same direction as he is, you kind try to almost flank him.

If you turn to the opposit direction to him you risk that he leaves your radar detection area.

[TomCatMucDe]

Note: I experienced lock lost even on non-manoeuvring targets...

 

I esperienced loss of lock after shooting the 530D and getting really close, around 3 NM, I am not sure that at such distance a radar can lose the lock

[jaguara5]

i guess the point of the moneuver is to deny him to fly at 90 degrees to you, by turning in the same direction as he is, you kind try to almost flank him.

If you turn to the opposit direction to him you risk that he leaves your radar detection area.

 

exactly.

[LuSi_6]

I'm on a buisness trip right now, so I can't test it.

 

Could someone test the results if you dive lower than your target so that seeker and radar are looking away from the ground?

[jaguara5]

Have made countless 1 vs 1 engagements against an Ai . Had vs tuaf scenario.

Always against an f16c 2 aim 120 + 2 aim 9 . I have 2 530+ 2 magic

I have very good kill to death ratio

Part of my developed tactic is the described manouver

[jojo]

i guess the point of the moneuver is to deny him to fly at 90 degrees to you, by turning in the same direction as he is, you kind try to almost flank him.

If you turn to the opposit direction to him you risk that he leaves your radar detection area.

 

The beaming is not about flying 90 of your flight course, but 90 of your radar beam, which can be slightly different.

[TomCatMucDe]

The beaming is not about flying 90 of your flight course, but 90 of your radar beam, which can be slightly different.

 

 

So that means when you change course 20 degrees he would still be 90 degrees from your radar beam while your course is gonna be 110 degrees to his?

[jojo]

Imagine you're flying North.

 

Target right ahead. To beam you he fly 090 or 270.

 

If you detect it on right at azimuth 045, to beam you he will have to fly 135 or 315.

[TomCatMucDe]

Imagine you're flying North.

 

Target right ahead. To beam you he fly 090 or 270.

 

This is obvious and this is my understanding

 

 

Imagine you're flying North.

 

Target right ahead. To beam you he fly 090 or 270.

 

If you detect it on right at azimuth 045, to beam you he will have to fly 135 or 315.

 

This is interesting. Lets say he is flying heading 315, his course is off by 45 degrees. However, indeed, he is 90 degrees to my radar beam and I can turn as I want and he will always be 90 degrees to my beam and inevitable that I lose the lock. Is that correct?

[jojo]

That's the idea...but to maintain the beam he will have to "circle" around you, the closer is the range, the tighter is the circle.

 

Then the beam depends on angle and target speed.

If the target is fast he will have to be more accurate for beaming angle. If he's slow he will beam you earlier in the turn, but with lower energy to counter potentially following Fox 2...

Always balance !

[LuSi_6]

so to maintan a relative speed between you and the target (to get a doppler effect) you should first turn away and than turn back into him, using all you gimbal limits. Is that right?

[TomCatMucDe]

look down / shoot down realistic?

 

his point is a bit different. If the guy you are trying to lock goes 90 deg to you, you cant do anything from far away.

 

Think of your radar as a portion of a circle, for him to fly at 90 degrees, he would draw a tangeant (good old geometry classes). To keep drawing this tangeant he has to fly in a circle way. Now this is easy when you are far away, but the closer you get, the smaller is the radius is and the harder for him to keep drawing this tangeant. He has to turn very quickly to draw a small circle

Edited January 12, 2016 by TomCatMucDe

[jojo]

A drawing is better than long text.

 

I just remind you that we are speaking about look down case...

[TomCatMucDe]

A drawing is better than long text.

 

I just remind you that we are speaking about look down case...

 

Indeed, hard to describe geometry with text.

 

Your drawing brings me to another question, if the bandit is beaming but he is at your level or higher than you and you dont see the ground, there would be no need for ground declutter and the target wouldnt be filtered out? meaning would you keep the lock on him?

[GGTharos]

That depends on the radar set's hardware capabilities, and the software it's programmed with.

 

I'm aware of at least one radar set that doesn't have good enough hardware to deal with processing signals if the doppler filters are turned off, but it's a pretty old one.

[jojo]

Indeed, hard to describe geometry with text.

 

Your drawing brings me to another question, if the bandit is beaming but he is at your level or higher than you and you dont see the ground, there would be no need for ground declutter and the target wouldnt be filtered out? meaning would you keep the lock on him?

 

Yes, at least it seems there is a consensus about that.

 

This is why for BVR shot it is wise to do F-Pole maneuver while diving harder than your target, to keep it in look up mode.

 

But it doesn't seem to work very well currently, I often loose lock during the turn while in look up situation.

Edited January 12, 2016 by jojo

[TomCatMucDe]

that's was I saw too, as soon as the bandit beams, you lose the lock no matter the position of the ground to you.

[TomCatMucDe]

That depends on the radar set's hardware capabilities, and the software it's programmed with.

 

I'm aware of at least one radar set that doesn't have good enough hardware to deal with processing signals if the doppler filters are turned off, but it's a pretty old one.

 

I suppose that if the aircraft cant know that it looks at the ground or not, the pilot should be able to manually switch on and off the filter right? That's the case of the MiG21.

 

I would be surprised if the Mirage cant do that automatically.

[GGTharos]

The mirage is a lot more advanced, but I don't know what criteria are used in RL to turn filters on or off. They're part of the entire ECCM mechanism - and do give you an example, you could be looking up and still be looking at clutter (you're low, your bandit is above you but there's a mountain in the background).

 

In addition, the moment you throw chaff out ... clutter :)