Make a L-39C free, with a small change?

[Vincent90]

And again:

 

If you are on the fence if DCS is your thing, you can check those out and get a good idea what you can expect from the paid modules.

 

A passive seat in a trainer will not give you a more representative idea of flying in DCS and if you're that invested into DCS, chances are likely for ED that you will buy a module.

[Fri13]

Definitely not. If you want it, buy it. If you don't then this whole thread is pointless. The fact that this and other modules are training aircraft doesn't make them any less costly to develop and market.

 

Do you know how many are there who are wanted to try some of the modules before they invest money to them? Or that they are not experienced pilots but would like to do things together with their friends?

 

No one would get L-39 free so they can fly alone for free!

It would be only like a "leasing a front seat" from a customer that paid both seats.

 

The two aircraft that are distributed free with DCS World are there to get people to try it, and then realise that DCS World is as good as advertised.

 

How does those two allow people to train with their friends as a trainer does? Both are single seaters? If the L-39 is so great experience, then it could be opened limited manner for some other people to try by those who have already paid for it? As they would then definitely buy their own module to fly alone!

The L-39C and ZA speak for themselves in terms of quality and realism. They are worth the purchase price. Period!

 

Why and how? By looking the videos or reading the ED shop description of that and taking their words?

 

What is so bad to give a open/free slot for front seat if someone who paid for the L-39 is willing to do so for their friend or to someone else in the server/community?

 

 

No one would get the L-39 modules free like they get TF-51 or Su-25T. They would only get the front seat from L-39C for limited time and how the paid module owner allows them to have.

 

Customer needs to pay for L-39 first before someone else can get open/free slot to front seat. And those someones are under the control of the paid customer.

 

This would be more like a giving a game controller to a friend visiting them, so they can try a game before buying a own one to their own home so they can play alone at home.

 

It would not be anything like copying the game to them, or they getting game free to play.

 

It would more more like what Blizzard has done with their games that they offer to everyone who have bought the game, a change to give their friends a client, so they can play the game with their friends. So the free version gives them the experience to have fun with friends.

 

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/buy-now/spawning

 

StarCraft II players know there's only one thing more fun than playing the game — sharing the experience with friends. If you've always yearned for a simple way to play StarCraft II with your friends, our Spawning feature makes it easier than ever.

 

And that has been possible since Diablo.

 

No one got the game free, they needed someone to pay it first. And while everyone could have copied that spawn client, they couldn't play it alone.

 

The same thing would be here. L-39C front seat being free, not capable to be flied alone but only with the person who paid for it.

 

So if you want to fly alone, you need to pay for it. If you want to get to back seat, you need to pay for it.

 

And because are talking about changes to fly with random people to teach them, we are talking about already simulated dual-seat trainer functions, the same rules applies to front seat in free/open seat at front, if rear seat choose to disable controls, so happens.

 

The thing is that you can fly with your friends, who doesn't need to invest money to begin with. Both are tied to same aircraft. And if the "free edition" starts to like things but you want to fly in own aircrafts, then comes the other modules.

[Fri13]

And again:

 

Originally Posted by Vincent90 View Post

If you are on the fence if DCS is your thing, you can check those out and get a good idea what you can expect from the paid modules.

 

A passive seat in a trainer will not give you a more representative idea of flying in DCS and if you're that invested into DCS, chances are likely for ED that you will buy a module.

 

It is not a passive. You get full controls as long the rear seat flight instructor (paid module owner) is willing to give you the controls. Just like in the real aircraft. If the flight instructor takes controls away, they are away.

 

So again and again, you should learn that the free/open seat at front is not just passive that you look around. You get full access to weapons, controls etc. As long the rear seat gives you them.

So you are not getting just to sit in and look around and be a passive.

So if a paid module owner at back seat wants to let the free/open front seat pilot to fly, they can. If they want to give to do attacks etc, they can. All the controls etc are like in simulated one.

 

And it is a very good reason why to have a multi-seat trainer to fly with a friends in the first place. As this is not a RIO seat, where the rear seat does something else than flying. Or that free/open seater would do RIO position.

 

UH-1H door gunner would not get to fly the UH-1H at all, only to sit there and use their guns.

In L-39C they would be totally disabled if the rear seat so wishes, or be able to get full control of the aircraft if rear seat so allows.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Fri13

[flying rabbit]

I really like the idea that you need one license per machine. So you can fly a full huey with just the pilot owning the module. I think this is a good opportunity to showcase the modules in action.

[Fri13]

I really like the idea that you need one license per machine. So you can fly a full huey with just the pilot owning the module. I think this is a good opportunity to showcase the modules in action.

 

There has been discussions that as now the module manager has been implemented and then Steam has own key system and authentication, the DRM system could be changed from 10 CD-keys etc.

Meaning that it would be easier to install and uninstall without limits as Module Manager is tied to your ED account. And I got the idea now that developer could have a change to make more money as well to sell a "Co-Pilot" or "RIO" licenses.

 

Like with F-14A the full module gives you the pilot and RIO seats. But then as the RIO is not just a door gunner or a flight student like in L-39, you are doing much more at the back. So the idea to offer the RIO seat as free is little questionable. So why not make so that RIO seat could be bought for like $9,99? instead $49,99? It would not work with L-39 as you are doing the same things. Neither it actually would work for the helicopters door gunners as you are just aiming with the mouse to shoot things, so it is like rail shooter.

 

It is just so difficult to justify a full module price to be paid to just fly with someone else and not be able do anything differently or touch controls while other fly. Like if you would want to be a Co-Pilot in UH-1H, you can't touch controls while other is flying, but you can adjust other settings easing the pilots work, so it works. But then with L-39, you can't fly, release weapons or use any radar or such (non-existing, duh) so full module price for that is just...

 

So it shouldn't be about "this aircraft is multi-seat so you need just one license" but more about per module that what is available to other.

 

I don't know how much anyone can argue that there is much to do for Student/Instructor in L-39 (C or ZA) when compared to Co-Pilot in UH-1H or in Mi-8MTv2?

 

Or how about coming AH-1W and Mi-24P?

 

The Mi-24P already limited with fixed gun the gunner tasks to 2/3 that the V variant would have offered, because fixed cannon. So the pilot fly and fires cannon and rockets. And Gunner task is to 1) observe 2) fire ATGM.

AH-1W offers way more tasks as there is the rotating 20mm, ATGM and then observing.

With coming F-14 versions we have RIO that has already lots of tasks to do in the long range combat, and then in air combat maneuvers keeping an eye to enemy and to rear. So there is always something to do.

 

And it just looks (to me) that L-39C and ZA are missing a lot from the dual-seat feature. As who would want to pay for a module to do nothing while the other is doing everything? I would just then fly alone at the moment and just train by crashing and burning with infinite weapons, instead trying to do it correctly because my buddy "virtual life" isn't depending about me.

So getting a free seat to train with someone in same aircraft would give a meaning for L-39. I would offer seat to someone, ask someone to show how to do proper ground attacks instead trying to read things or check tracks or videos. I think it would be nicer to hear the feedback directly when doing wrong or something should be looked at.

 

So maybe at one day ED will implement a integrated radio system. So people don't need to use TeamSpeak or anything like that, but the actual aircraft radios are used, the effects are there etc. So L-39 radio would allow people to talk to each other just by pressing a proper button in the aircraft, without any hassle from TS servers etc.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Fri13

[Silver_Dragon]

Fri13, your approach has some big problems.

 

Get "free" seat..... seat trainer, gunner, RIO, etc....... What happens if part of the community only get to fly on "free" seats and dont purchase the module? that make a great setback to ED, and a cut on sales, meanwhile the other part of the community (the purchase license module), can think was trusted by ED by purchase a module with a "free" feature to others players, that players with request a "compensation" by ED (lower prices, money repay, etc) affect to the cash incoming. That can turn to ED to think no make "multicrew" modules by the subsequence problems with can affect to the sales and a license nightmare gestion.

[Fri13]

Fri13, your approach has some big problems.

 

Get "free" seat..... seat trainer, gunner, RIO, etc....... What happens if part of the community only get to fly on "free" seats and dont purchase the module?

 

The problem is that you are expecting 50% of the community sit in the trainer (limited ground attack capability, very limited air-to-air combat capability) while the other "free" part is flying and having fun all the time?

 

 

The points about RIO, was that the same "free/open" seat can't be applied to it because RIO is not having duplicates of the front seat, and the aircraft isn't a trainer with very limited capabilities.

 

The points about door gunners, is that you can't fly a helicopter in a flight simulator, you are only pointing a machine gun! That is like someone would sell a Ground Crew module for $49,99 that allows you to wipe a aircraft windows with a mouse when they are on ground.

(Seriously, is most expecting a 4 players to buy a UH-1H so one can fly, a another can flip the switches now and then and assist the pilot and that two are just sitting around and shooting machine guns?)

 

The points about attack helicopters was that the same can't be applied to them as can be for L-39 (trainer, light attack aircraft, duplicated tasks) because you still have something to do, even when the coming Mi-24P will be very limited when the gunner position is basically just launching and guiding ATGM etc.

 

that make a great setback to ED, and a cut on sales, meanwhile the other part of the community (the purchase license module), can think was trusted by ED by purchase a module with a "free" feature to others players, that players with request a "compensation" by ED (lower prices, money repay, etc) affect to the cash incoming.

 

And why they would? If you don't want to give a open/free seat to student position and give the student now and then the controls, then don't do it! No one is giving free L-39C to anyone. Only a front seat if someone wants to do so!

 

That means that if I own L-39 module (and I have paid for it full price etc) then I can now and then invite my friend to fly with me and train air-to-air together in same aircraft. Train some ground attacks together. Talk over VoIP what to do and have fun.

 

It doesn't mean that I am most of the time there giving him to fly while I cook in the kitchen or I am out. It would be only that we can sit together in same aircraft, instead he flying Su-25T with the same loadout as would be in L-39 and do the same exact tasks, but this time just alone and likely doing more mistakes (if beginner) while I would fly in my own Su-25T or L-39 etc.

 

No one really would demand any lower price or such because they got the module and they don't need to give any positions to anyone if they want to do so.

 

That can turn to ED to think no make "multicrew" modules by the subsequence problems with can affect to the sales and a license nightmare gestion.

 

Really?

 

So again, expecting every single one to buy a UH-1H license just so they can sit as door gunners while one is piloting?

 

That sounds so profitable task!

 

If the money is so important, then why not split modules to parts and make microtransactions, pay X amount to get access to radio, X amount to get access to air-to-ground weapons etc. You get to choose what you want to do!

 

What I suggested, is that NO ONE is getting a free L-39C. No one is flying alone free with it, fighting alone etc.

And no one is forced to give controls to random people or so on.

 

L-39 is not F-14 where pilot and RIO has totally different tasks. The RIO can fly the aircraft, but that is in emergency situations when something has happened to an pilot!

 

A gunner in AH-1W is not flying the helicopter, that is the pilot task! The gunner is firing cannon, missiles, using TIS etc. But it has the possibility in case of emergency if something happens to pilot!

 

The difference is that even when to paid module owners in one L-39C are flying, they can't both be flying same time. The other can be flying and then other adjusting radio or so on. But how much worth it was for the full $59,99 price tag?

 

Is the L-39C so capable aircraft that you want to fly that all the time? Is it like replacement for F-15C or Mig-29? Or is it more actually for virtual acrobats then? And what does the other pilot do then on virtual acrobatics? And does everyone want to fly virtual acrobatics with L-39C?

 

Nothing these doesn't mean L-39 is not great module, with great flight characteristics and so on. But it is a TRAINER in a SIMULATOR.

 

Why does trainers exist in real world? -To train new pilots to fly and do procedures, not to fly the trainers!

 

Why does trainers exist in a simulator? - ???

 

Why did ED make the L-39 Albatros module?

It is popular aircraft in North-America. It is known acrobatics aircraft!

 

Like lets take a Hawk T.1A or C-101 etc. ALl are trainers. But how many really use those for like training? Other than virtual acrobatics as they would be used in real world?

If I want to train to fly Su-25T then I do it on that. As I can crash and burn as much I want.

I can read and check videos about Su-25T and just keep training.

I don't need L-39 to learn to fly Su-25T at all!

 

So I would only want L-39 as a collector? As a DCS fan? As a what?

 

What it would change if L-39 would not have a multi-seat capability? Would L-39 owners feel any different?

If you are for virtual acrobatics, you don't fly that with single aircraft. And if you need to buy own licenses for that, you don't really do sit in cockpit passively while other is flying if you want to do the acrobatics flying together in different aircrafts.

 

It is just that the multi-seat feature in a trainer in a simulator has very little use for the price point.

So why not make the possibility free to allow someone to learn flying and get feeling of the DCS with a paid DCS customer?

 

This way get more players and customers to DCS!

[Silver_Dragon]

I explain them more.....

 

You require someone purchase all prize module and get "free" a seat or seats...... How many licences ED lost? if on a trainer 1 person purchase all module and get a seat, you lost a 50%. On a "futurist" if applicable, a B-17F for put a example, you purchase a module and 9 friends coming without purchase nothing (lost 90%). On a UH-1H you lost 3 licenses ( 75%)....... a bad situation. If you appliqué them to all actual multi-crew , trainer, multirol, F/A-18D / Mig-29UTM, F-15E, F-16D, tornado IDS or other high performance aircraft you lost 50%, what level of license incoming can losing ED?. In the same situation, in the future, ED put vehicle and naval modules, example a M-1 tank, a full commander seat and free seats to a gunner, driver, loader or on a submarine, s commander full prize module and a free sonar operator, radar officer, weapon officer, TMA officer?.

 

About the "seat" licenses.... How quantity license require ED make to them suitable? take the previous example, a F-14 full prize license plus a low prize RIO license. a B-25 full pilot license plus two 2 Gunner and a bomber license. On a F-15E a full pilot license plus a low prize WSO license. You make a nightmare on the multi-player and the purchase systems with hundred and hundred of license types.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Silver_Dragon

[Home Fries]

I think this is a great idea, and if properly implemented would increase the DCS user base who might otherwise be intimidated by the Su-25T and TF-51.

 

I posted this idea regarding free door gunners a while back (which has also been discussed in this thread), and the principles remain consistent with the L-39 training idea.

 

1. 
   
2. The hardcore crowd will purchase the module anyway for the L-39ZA and in order to instruct others in the L-39C.
   
3. Even the Su-25T is intimidating for folks inexperienced in flight sims. It has a difficult flight model, a lot of key commands to remember, and it requires a gentle touch. It's not a great bird to "kick the tires" and learn how to fly. Providing newbies an opportunity to learn in a stable aircraft with an instructor would greatly assist in this learning curve, and bring more people into the fold who would otherwise be too intimidated.
   
4. People who learn on the L-39 may decide to take the next step and either purchase the L-39 module for the ZA, or another module once their confidence builds.
   
5. People who are content to remain in the free trainer seat are unlikely to purchase any DCS module in the first place.
   

[DoctorStrop]

I think it is a good idea. I also have the Hawk, and many other modules, but not the L-39C. I am toying with the idea of getting it, but I ask myself is it worth it over the Hawk.

 

If the OP's proposed idea was a reality, I would be able to make the decision based on someone having taken me for a spin in one. Even if the T'seat was just a passenger seat, when I finally can get a VR headset, I could sit wifey in it with the VR headset, as she is itching for a go. There are so many other possibilities. One poster mentioned that he never knew anyone who had been trained in a trainer in the SIM world, is that because the technology was just not available?

[Fri13]

I explain them more.....

 

You require someone purchase all prize module and get "free" a seat or seats...... How many licences ED lost? if on a trainer 1 person purchase all module and get a seat, you lost a 50%. On a "futurist" if applicable, a B-17F for put a example, you purchase a module and 9 friends coming without purchase nothing (lost 90%). On a UH-1H you lost 3 licenses ( 75%)....... a bad situation. If you appliqué them to all actual multi-crew , trainer, multirol, F/A-18D / Mig-29UTM, F-15E, F-16D, tornado IDS or other high performance aircraft you lost 50%, what level of license incoming can losing ED?. In the same situation, in the future, ED put vehicle and naval modules, example a M-1 tank, a full commander seat and free seats to a gunner, driver, loader or on a submarine, s commander full prize module and a free sonar operator, radar officer, weapon officer, TMA officer?.

 

You are making wrong assumptions. It would be considered per module, not by all because multi-seat!

L-39C is not same as F-14. A trainer with duplicates tasks and controls to fly, only the instructor has simulation buttons to malfunctions.

F-14 RIO is not duplicate to pilot, neither is pilot to RIO. Both has different tasks in aircraft.

 

This is only about L-39C and not about all. And lost licenses for L39 would be minimal, actually controversial to give more sales because it brings more customers once they learn to fly easier and faster and they get touch with friends, and wouldn't anyways otherwise purhace L-39!

 

 

About the "seat" licenses.... How quantity license require ED make to them suitable? take the previous example, a F-14 full prize license plus a low prize RIO license. a B-25 full pilot license plus two 2 Gunner and a bomber license. On a F-15E a full pilot license plus a low prize WSO license. You make a nightmare on the multi-player and the purchase systems with hundred and hundred of license types.

 

No....

 

Take a full license and split it.

 

Full = ie $49,99

RIO = ie $9,99

 

Full includes the RIO already so you get FULL module. RIO license Allows you only to fly as RIO when FULL license is in front seat (so you can't fly alone). If you upgrade to FULL, then you get discount of the RIO so you don't pay 49,99+9,99, but only 9,99+40,00. This because ED has their bonus system for discounts and it could be counted as so.

This way you could in theory get more RIO or Co-Pilots without requiring them to invest arm and leg if they want to play with friend but not put 40+ to module for now and then fly. This would compensate to -70% super sales too that are not anymore coming! So either get 9,99 or get nothing! I take the 9,99 over nothing!

 

But that is other thread then for F-14 for possible licensing to fix the dual seat requirement, that L-39 doesn't have! You can fly L-39 alone just fine! F-14.... Not so much! Neither coming AH-1W or Mi-24P! You need a human gunner or pilot to operate those well!

 

L-39 is different, it is an trainer with duplicates! And who wants to pay full price as total beginner to learn to fly?

 

As said, we have never previously had a trainer with dual-seat multiplayer!

We have had flight Sims with a dual seats and it was fun, but back in the day it was all in same license that you paid once and then played on as many computer you wanted or you don't need to buy every aircraft as separate module!

 

This is question how ED could:

 

A) increase user base

B) increase profits (because a)

C) increase multiplayer fun and total on-line players as you have more in multi-seat (leading to a and b)

 

This is not about flying B-17 and having a 9 free seats. But sorry, even in that case it likely would be better that way. As how easy it is to get a 9 paid module owners to single aircraft, than get 3 (pilot, mapper/radio operator, co-pilot etc) that has full license and then 6 that doesn't but works as gunners? So instead 1 aircraft with 9 licenses, you could get 3 planes with 9 licenses and 18 other players! Now you have a small bomb flight, instead a single bomber! Increase the fun in multiplayer! Increase the possible change some of those 6 wants to get to be bombers or navigators or even fly that thing!

Now, get them to L-39 training with you to get some feeling to flying and different operations and you can get them hooked and purhace not just other modules, but L-39 too!

 

No one is suggesting that the L-39 would be free like Su-25T or TF-51 are now!

 

And you don't anyways get 200% dual-licenses sold to get two pilots to same L-39 as easily you could get 1 license and now and then extra license from those who experience the flight and wants it.

 

Like if I now buy that L-39. Would you be willing to come seat as student in my aircraft and experience how I disable your controls or override your flight now and then and only fly it with me? Or would you fly your own license alone?

 

I bet you would buy your own L-39 sooner than you think! Especially if you find it is a nice plane to fly! But you having a change to fly it with me.... Nice "trial". But it isn't comparable to trials because it is an trainer aircraft with multi-seat!

I could ask few friends who are not invested at all to DCS or its paid modules, to fly with me, teach them things and have fun together. Then get them hooked to different aircrafts based missions we would fly with L-39 and get them purhace those!

 

In other words, I would be working aasED marketing and training team and get more players to DCS community!

 

How many remembers the challenge to start on first time in DCS level simulator? How many crashed their aircrafts? How long it toke to learn landings and take-off and drop bombs or fire rockets or do a proper air combat maneuvers?

 

How much easier it would have been if you could have a instructor back seat doing flight first as sample, and then you doing it on second time together and third time you do it alone?

How much easier it would be to instructor to be able keep the beginner in control? Avoid wasting valuable time when other makes mistakes and needs to respawn?

 

And soon you want to get own module as you want to start flying as flight and do together things!

 

The free seat would only ease the thing and be positive marketing for ED!

[piXel496]

Is it a bad idea.. Yes.

 

Multi-seat capability is a complex development feature worth paying for. With regards to marketing and attract new players to DCS. With what ED offers for free at this moment, it is clear to experience what this sim does and can do more if you buy your prefered plane, map and/or feature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited March 12, 2016 by piXel496
And one day you are prepared to pay for your multi-seat plane, it's great fun.

[Silver_Dragon]

Fri13, if you put a RIO, Gunner or other type of module outside of a "FULL" module, you force to build a new module and a new type of license. If you have a RIO license and purchase a FULL module , you require 2 modules, with your proper license and activation number, not one.

 

All modules need integrate as full integrated system, a integrate block. If you dont make them, the entire licence system blow away and the system crash.

[msalama]

Nah. Rather add multi-seat capability to the TF-51, which is free already.

[Fri13]

Fri13, if you put a RIO, Gunner or other type of module outside of a "FULL" module, you force to build a new module and a new type of license.

 

As I said, the license system has already changed. It is not anymore a encrypted file that you send with DRM to be usable based install. We got now Module Manager that has connection to ED account that holds your keys. And Steam has similar functionality, most of the steam games are not under Valve DRM, many doesn't have any DRM.

 

What I am talking about that, is to actually modify the license system more to allow per seat in aircrafts.

 

Now some will say that it would lead to cracked versions around internet where people would download the modules without paying.... Well it has happened and happens all the time that if you know what to do, you can find cracked modules for free anyways (if you want to take a risk they don't come with trojans).

 

If you have a RIO license and purchase a FULL module , you require 2 modules, with your proper license and activation number, not one.

 

Might have been so in back in the days, might still be so if not completed but in future it would be a license from the ED store itself, so you have single module, that checks its permission from the module manager, that has authenticated from the ED register.

 

http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/All_about_your_account

 

 

But that is other technical discussion that you can start as well ;)

[Fri13]

Is it a bad idea.. Yes.

 

Multi-seat capability is a complex development feature worth paying for. With regards to marketing and attract new players to DCS.

 

Is the L-39 only multi-seat module in the future?

Did ED develop that multi-seat technology only for themselves, or is it for third party developers too?

 

We are still talking about L-39 here, not about any other module.

 

What you are talking, is that L-39 would be required module to get ever any other multi-seat functionality work in any other module now or in future, so UH-1, F-14, Mi-24, AH-1 etc modules would never get multi-seat if user doesn't have L-39 module licensed.

 

No, the multi-seat is technology just like Air-to-Ground radar, AFM, PFM or any other thing. Yet ED gives free AFM with totally free Su-25T. TF-51 has PFM and ASM and it is totally free.

 

Yet, I am not talking about releasing L-39C as totally free module like those two, only the front seat possibility when there is paid license owner sitting in the aircraft.

 

And that free front seat in L-39C would not make every other module have free multi-seat if the developers wouldn't want such to do.

 

With what ED offers for free at this moment, it is clear to experience what this sim does and can do more if you buy your prefered plane, map and/or feature.

 

And the free front seat in L-39C only when there is paid license owner at the back would not do that? It would somehow ruin the whole license system so that everyone would get free L-39C and free totally alone there, blowing things up, doing things etc?

 

Do you even know how much effort you would require to do to get sit in that free front seat?

 

1) Contact to someone who has purchased the L-39 module (that is first requirement, $59,99 for ED at that moment)

 

2) Discuss and plan a time when you would fly, and on what server you would fly it.

 

3) Install DCS World, configure it. Install VoIP for better Co-Op.

 

4) Connect to the given server in agreed time and wait that the paid module owner gets to L-39C cockpit and takes the rear seat and unlocks the front seat as open.

 

5) Select that L-39C and you are now in the front seat.

 

 

Does that sound such thing that you would do all the time, every time, with everybody?

 

And then what? You still don't have the controls if the instructor doesn't give you them. You are under the instructor mercy about simulated malfunctions and other things.

 

Immediately the instructor disconnects, switch aircraft, ejects or anything, you will lose all controls of the aircraft.

 

You would NEVER fly L-39C alone. Not for free. The price is that there is a paid license owner sitting in instructor seat and flying with you.

 

That is the price.

 

You can start arguing how it is not bringing money to ED because it is free, but it requires that paid license in the first place.

And it is not a task you would do anyways because it is always tying two real person to one single same aircraft, what is still even now just a trainer and light attack aircraft.

 

L-39C is not a such module that is like F-14 will be, or like UH-1H is or KA-50 is or A-10C is.

 

The trick here is that the module is already paid by someone who wants it. And now there is two person who would need to share the controls.

 

Eventually the free pilot will want to fly alone, from start to end. They don't want to be training or doing things. Sure the rear sitter could just put the aircraft out and go out etc. But after each crash, they would need to repeat the aircraft selection and get in, what doesn't work if the other is away from computer.

 

And then these two guys will start want to fly together, so the other will buy L-39 module or some other module that both has and then fly those together.

 

As flying in L-39C where other can just watch around while other is flying, is not so fun as it will be in F-14 where pilot and RIO has totally different tasks. Or any other module basically.

 

And here comes the UH-1H multi-seat functionality question, because being a door gunner is not so happy experience either, because all what you can do is to wave your mouse to aim and shoot that your door gun. You can't fly the aircraft, you don't have any other purpose than just shoot that gun and look around.

 

So who comes and say that the door gun seat is as valuable as is the pilot or co-pilot seat, needs to do revaluation about the functionalities.

 

Same thing is with L-39.

 

The thing would be totally different if L-39C would have something else for the rear sitter. Like radar screen to operate, a spy camera to handle, a complex ECM system to manage or something else than just sit down there and press those couple malfunction buttons and flip hood up/down for front seat.

 

L-39C aircraft is a trainer. It is not front line fighter like F-14 or transport aircraft like UH-1H or anything like that.

 

It is still a trainer even in DCS. And why not make the L-39C work like a trainer in DCS?

It would be the community trainer, buddy trainer and this way even generate more profits because when you get the people interested for it, they will buy it or other modules.

 

If you are interested to L-39 in first place a much, you would buy it. You would not wait to get sit in front for someone.

 

This would just allow those who doesn't have much interest to DCS, to get the experience. They would not need to spend hours to learn basics with TF-51 or Su-25T but they would actually get someone to take them up in the air, keep them from crashing and teach them how to do air-to-ground and air-to-air combat, without them actually needing to read anything than just follow the instructor at back seat.

 

It would be like interactive video from L-39C where you actually communicate with someone.

[Silver_Dragon]

What I am talking about that, is to actually modify the license system more to allow per seat in aircrafts.

 

ED has not go to "degrade" your license system to get a "free seat". The actual system are 1 full product (module, map, campaign), 1 license not 0.3 product, 1 license.

 

By them system, to a L-39 "single free seat" you require build a new module, with the proper cockpit, system and other features, similar to the TF-51 or Su-25T, and put them into the simulator.

 

Is the L-39 only multi-seat module in the future?

Did ED develop that multi-seat technology only for themselves, or is it for third party developers too?

 

The actual multi-seat technology has in develop by ED and actually has exclusive of L-39 (core testbed) and DCS: W core engine. When ED make more mature, clear bugs, improve cooperative multiplayer and make a stability on that feature, start to get them to BSK and others 3rd parties to integrate into the respective modules with the proper learn, develop, module modification, AFM modification and testing, but only when have consolidate into the DCS: W engine.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Silver_Dragon

[Hook47]

Last I read it cost around 100,000 and up to develope a full fidelity aircraft like the L-39. It is perfectly reasonable to expect someone to need to buy the module even to ride in the student seat, ED would be giving up sales to do otherwise

[Fri13]

Last I read it cost around 100,000 and up to develope a full fidelity aircraft like the L-39. It is perfectly reasonable to expect someone to need to buy the module even to ride in the student seat, ED would be giving up sales to do otherwise

 

And how many beginner (no experience what so ever!) Is going to buy L-39 so they can sit in front, instead using Su-25T and train with it?

 

Seriously?

 

Take a Su-25T for a spin in clear configuration and you can crash it as much you want. You have even exact all same combat capabilities as L-39C does.

 

Very few would buy L-39 to learn to fly and then buy a "proper module" for action!

Instead they buy A-10C or similar and start training alone with that alone by watching some videos etc.

 

And those who know to fly, are not going to let someone else who knows to fly to fly their L-39! Every module owner will be in their own modules!

 

 

Give a "free ride" (like URL in top post) and you more likely get people to buy other modules if not even L-39 too!

Don't, and get less sales and profit and smaller community!

[Fri13]

Fri13, your approach has some big problems.

 

Get "free" seat..... seat trainer, gunner, RIO, etc....... What happens if part of the community only get to fly on "free" seats and dont purchase the module? that make a great setback to ED, and a cut on sales, meanwhile the other part of the community (the purchase license module), can think was trusted by ED by purchase a module with a "free" feature to others players, that players with request a "compensation" by ED (lower prices, money repay, etc) affect to the cash incoming. That can turn to ED to think no make "multicrew" modules by the subsequence problems with can affect to the sales and a license nightmare gestion.

 

Oh and if those "other part" who are simple minded and afraid that they got fooled, they can simply keep their seats locked and not offer open seat to anyone....

 

No one get to fly alone, do you understand that?

No one get to fly for free alone, isn't that clear?

No one can enforce others to give a free ride, isn't it clear too?

 

If someone wants to give a free module, they can even borrow the key to other right now, is that away from ED similar way? YES!

So ED should disallow module license transfers at once because someone else might fly free!

 

The difference is that right now I could get up in the air with a friend and train him to do ground attacks and missile engagements so later he could buy a A-10C if hooked. Now I can't because he doesn't want to fly alone and spend money to game that he knows nothing about. That means I can't get him up even with a Su-25T because he doesn't want to train alone! So I don't buy L-39 because I have no use for trainer with dual seat.

 

That as example. So ED just lost 2 licenses, one L-39 and A-10C license if friend would have liked it. In future I could have repeated that and get people buy A-10C licenses or even A-10A ones!

Now there is nothing!

 

The suggestion in topic is for limited use, not causing losses but only profits. It would as well help community as someone having problems here to understand specific maneuver, they could meet at server and the exper nced one shows the maneuvers and that is then better community! The person asking help would anyways buy a L-39 just to learn that maneuver!

[Steve_]

Nah. Rather add multi-seat capability to the TF-51, which is free already.

 

if only..

[Silver_Dragon]

Last I read it cost around 100,000 and up to develope a full fidelity aircraft like the L-39. It is perfectly reasonable to expect someone to need to buy the module even to ride in the student seat, ED would be giving up sales to do otherwise

 

On last year, on a Video interview, Wags talk about the Bf-109, ED was put near 250000 $ only on develop AFM..... if a WW2 or a trainer reach that level on inverting, we unknown the "prize" of develop cost and the licenses of other aircraft, to put a example, BSK UH-1 has official Bell Trexton license product or Mi-8 has "entertainment" version of Professional simulator cockpit trainer make with Concord XXI / Avia. In some site on internet, the L-39 was part of CSTS Dinamika military trainer build in cooperation with ED.

 

Other point has the "monetary requirement" was put the russian government with the secret military Law to make the L-39.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Silver_Dragon

[msalama]

Don't, and get less sales and profit and smaller community!

 

That's just an opinion, unless you can produce some evidence supporting it.

[piXel496]

Hi Fri13,

I understand you are enthousiastic about a free licence for the student seat in the L-39 and that is perfectly fine.

 

Your reaction where you formulate questions and make answers for yourself are unrelated to my motivation:"Multi-seat capability is a complex development feature worth paying for. With regards to marketing and attract new players to DCS. With what ED offers for free at this moment, it is clear to experience what this sim does and can do more if you buy your prefered plane, map and/or feature.".

 

And I like to add that an extra licence for free student seats is a programming complexity better spend elsewhere and unnecessary diffuses a clear license for obtaining the L-39 or any other aircraft.

 

So please don't blow a gasket, my opinion is still: "Is it a bad idea.. Yes".

 

 

 

 

 

:renske:

Edited March 14, 2016 by piXel496
If you want to see others fly, use F2

[Fri13]

That's just an opinion, unless you can produce some evidence supporting it.

 

I gave examples how parfum manufacturers gives free samples to boost sales. Same is with other ladies products to give samples and services to boost sales.

 

Same is with Su-25T and TF-51 free to boost sales.

 

This wouldn't even be totally free but only if someone who bought a license would allow someone to sit in and not touch controls while the other is flying.

 

So all the talks about losing money are more about opinions than having a possibility sit in front for free.

 

If L-39 would be like F-14 RIO, I wouldn't even suggest this to it.

UH-1 door gunners are as well special treat as it isn't same as Co-Pilot or RIO.

 

This new multi-seat technology is new, as well is the module manager and DCS 2.0 etc. And trainer with multi-seat behind full price that both should buy for short while before investing to actual modules isn't very nice thing.

Those who are L-39 fans would buy anyways the module, so it isn't away from them.

 

If we would swap L-39 in this suggestion to Hawk T.1A, the same thing would apply. A limited attack capable aircraft with dual seats and meant to be a trainer.

And if Hawk would allow this suggestion, I would find use for the module to go out take someone out for a round or two for training so they would 1) learn to fly other modules better 2) get interested to purhace some other module with better capabilities.

 

Now I can only say "Don't buy" for either ones as it is better put money to even Su-25A module to have more fun but it is behind more effort so more difficult to get someone buy it if they don't get it as gift.