How to attack a target

[bunraku]

Hi

 

It might sound stupid, but finding a target or targets is one thing, but once you've found it how do you attack it? What I mean is everyone is different and some pilots are more successful than others. Some of the methods I see are

 

1) Headless chicken. My own method and I would like to change it. This is the fly away, come back fly away come back, fly away come back. However there is no real planning in the direction of attack or egress. Target is that way and I fly that way and I egress the opposite direction from which I attacked and I will come back from that direction and I may as well be ringing a bell. Whatever happens happens and hopefully it works

 

2) You see the target, but may spend some time flying around and studying it. You may then plan an attack direction and egress direction. You may come back from that direction or a different direction etc etc

 

I also don't really know the optimum distance to go away and come back and when should you orbit. And when orbiting and the TGP is on the Right Wing should you bank to the right or left to maintain TGP lock as ai suffer fro masking a lot.

 

And lastly do you keep your TAD in normal or EXP modes?

 

So I know how to use the weapons and systems, but not how to use them to their best ability. So I am asking what people do when they find and prosecute targets .

 

Any tips appreciated?

[Xavven]

It depends on the situation, but I usually orbit the target while sizing up targets, and then opt for a box delivery if I'm using guns, rockets, or unguided bombs.

 

The 476th has a battle book with specific delivery parameters if you want to be truly realistic (and good), but I fly a little more casual (and admittedly I'm not as skilled for it). In general, I start at between 8,000 and 15,000 ft AGL, wait until my slant range is about 2.5 nm and my target is at about my 3 or 9 o'clock, then bank and turn to the target while simultaneously entering a dive. This allows you to pull positive Gs and you can keep your eyes on the target the entire time. This is far and away better than the negative G nose downs while running straight in like the DCS training missions have you do.

 

If I'm employing GBU-12s, then I don't bother with a dive. Depending on the air defense threat, I might be as high as 20,000 ft when I drop my bomb in CCRP mode. Instead of overflying the target, I make a hard turn until my time-to-impact is 16 seconds, then level off so I can self-designate with the laser. The turn allows for faster follow-up attacks because I don't have to fly away (at least not much) to get another bomb run.

 

For Mavericks, yeah, sometimes you have to fly away if you've been orbiting too close, but usually I am able to employ them before I set up a close orbit.

 

And lastly, there are some situations where you can't orbit the target, but rather you have an IP (ingress point) some distance from the target area, and often you have a mission line that you should not cross, usually due to an anti-air threat such as a long-range SAM. In those cases, you should sort targets while orbiting the IP, then run in, deliver, and come back to the IP before re-attack.

[Xavven]

I forgot to answer your other questions.

 

Firstly, if and when you orbit your targets, do so in a clockwise direction, banked to the right (if your TGP is on the right like it usually is). I usually use Altitude Hold autopilot with a 10 to 30 degree bank angle, depending on the distance I'm orbiting. You'll get a feel for it.

 

In general, I orbit between 5 and 10 miles from the target at 10,000 to 15,000 ft AGL depending on the anti-air threat. At this distance, I can see the targets well enough with my Mk 1 eyeballs, but I'm no so close that I'm overflying the targets, and I'm high enough to be above AAA and IR SAM threats and my TGP doesn't get masked. It's also close enough that you can engage targets fairly quickly if you're called upon to do so. For me, it's the sweet spot. I don't know what real A-10 pilots do, though. Oh well.

 

I personally keep my TAD in normal mode. The only time I use EXP is if I'm trying to hook a target that's been data-linked by a JTAC or flight lead/wingman.

 

As for your last question, are you asking what weapons to use on what targets? In general, I save mavericks for SAMs, AAA, and the more advanced tanks like the T-90 and T-72. Laser guided bombs I use for tank plinking, CBU-97's for convoys or large groups of vehicles. JDAMs for static targets like bridges and buildings, or to kill infantry. Rockets for infantry (they suck on vehicles IMO-- I just use the gun). Lastly, the gun is my favorite weapon by far. It can take out infantry, soft skinned vehicles, and I can take tanks up to T-72s. I'm not very good against T-90s yet, but StrongHarm made a cool tank practice map I've been meaning to practice more on.

[bunraku]

Thanks for your time and reply Xavven.

[Lt.Snake]

Hi,

 

I usually do a threat assesment using the TGP while orbiting at a distance at altitude (ca. 8000ft AGL), over a known friendly position (IP). Also, I have found that it is very important to not get glued to the TGP and to keep my head out of the cockpit. This hugely helps with building situational awareness and is CRITICAL for planning a safe egress. NEVER overfly groups of IFVs or MBTs on your egress. My threat hirachy tends to be as follows, which is unrealistic, but so be it:

 

Highest to lowest:

1) New gen SAMs (ie. 2S6/SA19)

2) IFVs in groups (worse than ZSU 23-4, 30mm are deadly and super accurate)

3) MBTs in groups (worse than ZSU 23-4, deadly and super accurate. Also they are impossible to take out with guns at standoff range >1NM. Once your guns are effective on them, theirs are effective on you)

5) Heater SAMs / Manpads

4) ZSU 23-4

5) Any other AAA

6) Single MBTs or IFVs

7) Artillery

8) Trucks and Personell

 

Based on that, I work out an attack plan and "allocate" my ordonance to specific targets. I also make sure that I know which way to turn for a safe egress.

 

For example, if I have enough countermeasures, I may choose to "wild weasel" IR sams to starfe them of missiles. If impossible, I take them out with Mavericks. Following that, I mostly snipe AAA with Guns from a standoff range (1.8-1.5NM slant). After that, I'll thin out IFVs and MBTs using Mavericks / JDAMs / GBUs or CBU 97s. What's left, I'll mop up with guns.

 

For Maverick delivery, I mostly prefer a straight in approach in a low angle dive towards the target, firing as soon as I get a lock. I have found that the TGP sometimes loses track after high-G roll in maneauvers.

 

For LGBs I mostly do level deliveries, staying out of AAA / SAM range.

 

For gun / unguided bombs / rockets, I place the targets off my beam and then do a roll in while pulling towards the targets entering a steeper dive.

 

My tactics may not be realistic, but neither are "super accurate" IFV/MBT snipers.

[bunraku]

Thanks Snake!

[StrongHarm]

Xavven's tactics seem pretty sound. In my learning process I remember always having to be right up on the target. Later I found that stand-off is the best policy. I also learned late in the game that waving off from a run-in is not the end of the world. If it doesn't look pretty I just go around for another pass. You're kind of hanging your rump out in the wind with each additional pass, but it's better than wasted ordnance or 'seat of the pants' mistakes that are made when you try to compensate for bad ingress. Personally, I do most of the things that Xavven said, like standing off 10nm and getting a good picture of the threat area and doing at least minimal prep. Additionally, if I'm nervous about the threats, I'll create mark points so I can get out of the area as quickly as possible:

- Get in a 10nm 10k orbit (if possible) and get eyes on the target area

- TGP to target 1 (highest threat) and markpoint (TMS Right Short)

- Find a nice egress point about 5nm away on the TAD and mark it (TMS Right Short)

- TGP to target 2 and mark it

- Find a different egress point on the TAD and mark it

- TGP target 3, etc.

 

The result is that you go to markpoint A, drop ordnance, then follow egress to B. Go to C and drop then egress to D. It sounds like a pain, but when you make it part of your TTP and get used to it, planning and execution both take half the time, and you get away from the threat area quicker. Keep in mind also, if you're in mark mode your Z mark is always the point you hit last. Even If I'm not organizing my sortie with markpoints at all (and keeping it simple), I still use Z mark to keep situational awareness on my last target point.

 

For my tank busting tutorial mission, I now have an NTTR version which is much improved over the Caucasus version. You can find both in my sig. When I started using it I could only kill maybe 2 T-80s/90s with a full load of cannon rounds.. if I was lucky. I usually kill 16 tanks now with a full load. It's helped me a lot. I try to fly it once a month to stay skillful. I have it running on my public NTTR dedicated server, but it's not in the normal rotation. If you see me in there and want to fly it together, just say the word and I'll queue it up.

Edited May 12, 2016 by StrongHarm

[bunraku]

On a similar issue. How do you keep track of a moving target/ convoy. I tend to circle after having locking a target in point mode and of course the circling tends to lose the lock and the vehicles can have moved several hundred yards by the time I find them again. So whats the best way to keep them locked when moving?

 

Thanks

[Kippy]

Bunraku, I've found that the easiest way to keep track of convoys or moving targets is to maintain distance, which will allow the TGP a wider view of the area surrounding the convoy. If a lock is lost, hopefully a wider view will allow you regain sight of the target faster. If you're escorting a friendly convoy/object, I simply recommend being low, closer to the convoy/object if able. This will allow you to hopefully see the convoy, and react to any threats quickly.

 

If you struggle with things of this sort, grab a few friends and give the mission "FOB Vetka" a go. Vetka is one of the most fun missions out there, and it's good practice for tracking a convoy, and acquiring and engaging targets visually.

[Deezle]

Highest to lowest:

1) New gen SAMs (ie. 2S6/SA19)

2) IFVs in groups (worse than ZSU 23-4, 30mm are deadly and super accurate)

3) MBTs in groups (worse than ZSU 23-4, deadly and super accurate. Also they are impossible to take out with guns at standoff range >1NM. Once your guns are effective on them, theirs are effective on you)

5) Heater SAMs / Manpads

4) ZSU 23-4

5) Any other AAA

6) Single MBTs or IFVs

7) Artillery

8) Trucks and Personell

This is pretty much how I always approached targets too. However I'm happy to report the latest open beta update finally nerfed the amazing accuracy of tanks and IFVs, AAA as well. It now appears IFV turrets are terrible at aiming at aircraft, tank pintle mount machine guns are a little better than the IFVs, Zu-23s are about as accurate as the tank machine guns now and the Shilka is better than Zu-23s but not as good as it used to be.

 

All in all a huge improvement. Now I finally fear AAA more than tanks and IFVs.

[StrongHarm]

I agree with Kippy that standoff is the best way to keep track of a fast moving convoy (among other benefits). If you're too close it's easy to lose sight.. kind of like trying to track a running rabbit 10 yards away with a 32x sniper scope. If you find yourself in this situation and you're worried about losing sight of the moving target, place a mark at their current position, and then another X miles ahead on the same course. You can do this by slewing the TGP, TAD, or HUD and using TMS Short Right to create the markpoint.

[Lt.Snake]

Thanks for the heads up, Deezle! That sounds like a big improvement. I am gonna check it out right now.

I am not saying that they should make it easy on us, I just find it awkward that the most deadly AAA-Assets on the Battlefield to date were IFVs and MBTs.

 

Edit:

I tested it and was able to take out a column of 9 agressive IFVs using guns only, without takong major damage. A thing I wasn't able to do until now without losing an engine, a wing, the CDU, CICU, an MFCD or all of the above. Still, If you act stupidly and don't make a safe egress, or move in too close before degrading their numbers, they'll shred you to pieces. I personally think that this kind of shooting accuracy against maneuvering air targets is much more in line with the real capabilities of these vehicles and their crews. Good job ED!

Edited May 15, 2016 by Lt.Snake

[bunraku]

Bunraku, I've found that the easiest way to keep track of convoys or moving targets is to maintain distance, which will allow the TGP a wider view of the area surrounding the convoy. If a lock is lost, hopefully a wider view will allow you regain sight of the target faster. If you're escorting a friendly convoy/object, I simply recommend being low, closer to the convoy/object if able. This will allow you to hopefully see the convoy, and react to any threats quickly.

 

If you struggle with things of this sort, grab a few friends and give the mission "FOB Vetka" a go. Vetka is one of the most fun missions out there, and it's good practice for tracking a convoy, and acquiring and engaging targets visually.

 

 

Thanks Kippy and everyone else who replied. I am flying myself and ma not part of a community to fly with. Is anyone willing to make a wee test mission and fly with me till I get the hang of situational awareness in relation to a target and not just moving ones.?

 

Quick question. When you are told something is East of your Location or Target location are you using the Ribbon at the bottom of the HUD, the magnetic compass on the HUD frame or TAD?

 

Just interested in how people gather their bearings in relation to a point of interest.

 

If anyone wants to fly with me send me a PM. I can use all weapons and navigate, I just need help knowing where I am in relation to the a point of interest/target once the first fly by is done.

[Xavven]

Quick question. When you are told something is East of your Location or Target location are you using the Ribbon at the bottom of the HUD, the magnetic compass on the HUD frame or TAD?

 

It depends.

 

I use the TAD (in normal mode) if I had acquired the target visually outside the cockpit. There's a little green triangle on the inner circle that denotes which direction is north. It's also useful for telling your teammates which direction you're attacking from.

 

I use the TGP if I acquired the target with the TGP. There's a compass rose in the upper right corner.

[vstolmech513]

Quick question. When you are told something is East of your Location or Target location are you using the Ribbon at the bottom of the HUD, the magnetic compass on the HUD frame or TAD?

 

Just interested in how people gather their bearings in relation to a point of interest.

 

One thing I've always done is added a mark point on the TAD with where I wanted to start my run from and hooked it in order to always know 'where' it is in relation to where I am. This isn't needed if there is an IP of course, but most of the single player missions I use or mess around with don't have them.

[StrongHarm]

The most important aspect of situational awareness is orientation, or knowing where you are at all times. This is why Bullseye is so important. My preferred method is to hook an object on TAD and always have a landmark reference for visual orientation (body of water, mountain, etc.).

 

If you want to get good at orientation, practice keeping track of orientation to target and egress in your head. I know this sounds obvious and simple, but it doesn't come naturally to most people. To put the exercise into perspective, here's the thought process; target north, egress south, bullseye east (change direction) target west, egress east, bullseye north. If you do this while you're training, you'll start to orient automatically and subconsciously.

[Fri13]

This is pretty much how I always approached targets too. However I'm happy to report the latest open beta update finally nerfed the amazing accuracy of tanks and IFVs, AAA as well. It now appears IFV turrets are terrible at aiming at aircraft, tank pintle mount machine guns are a little better than the IFVs, Zu-23s are about as accurate as the tank machine guns now and the Shilka is better than Zu-23s but not as good as it used to be.

 

All in all a huge improvement. Now I finally fear AAA more than tanks and IFVs.

 

The iron sighted AAA should be bad unless you are flying straight at them where they can fire short bursts and get quickly the hit by randomizing the hitting areas.

ZSU-23-4 should be accurate as it is radar ranged and lead assisted.

And then IFV like BMP-3 should just rip you down as they have automatic targeting and tracking and will get hits in first bursts if you don't change flight direction continually (even with nice curve flight you get downed). The other IFV that would be capable for that is the CV90 series that can just low flying aircrafts down easily.

 

But then thinking IFV like M2 Bradley or BMP-1 or BMP-2 and you really don't have a change to hit a aircraft unless it flies at you and are equal to ZU-23-2 if those are stationary.

 

But nice to hear that there is improvement in latest patches, as that means I need to go and get a test for it. As it has been so awful how accurate and fast AI really is.

[Fri13]

Thanks for the heads up, Deezle! That sounds like a big improvement. I am gonna check it out right now.

I am not saying that they should make it easy on us, I just find it awkward that the most deadly AAA-Assets on the Battlefield to date were IFVs and MBTs.

 

Edit:

I tested it and was able to take out a column of 9 agressive IFVs using guns only, without takong major damage.

 

What IFV you were attacking?

 

As one easy mistake is that you are doing an attack and suddenly you get shot at from elsewhere that you didn't spot (masked well) and then you need to avoid the new threat and you just start the maneuver to wrong direction and end up flying straight to worse area.

 

And with A-10C the speed has not been the benefactor for surviving changes, especially when first hit with 90% change destroyed counter-measurement system and both huds etc.

And that way rendered the GAU-8 as "useless" unless targets were something that didn't shoot back at all.

[Lt.Snake]

What IFV you were attacking?

 

As one easy mistake is that you are doing an attack and suddenly you get shot at from elsewhere that you didn't spot (masked well) and then you need to avoid the new threat and you just start the maneuver to wrong direction and end up flying straight to worse area.

 

For the test yersterday, I set up a custom mission with 3 x BMP2, 3 x BMP3 and 3 x BTR. I put them in a single concentration on a road. There were no other threats in theatre. As stated above, I had no trouble taking them down with guns. Before the last update that wasn't possible. So I think certainly an improvement.

Over my +/- 200hrs of flying the hog in this simulator though, I found IFVs and MBTs exceptionally hard to deal with. Given the fact, that they are not dedicated anti air assets and that their crews are trained accordingly, this simply wasn't believable. This is especially in a CAS situation, where the vehicle will have its main attention focussed on fighting ground units, expecting contact. Why would armys even bother to have low altitude AAA units of any kind, if they simply could stick with IFVs?

 

As somebody who has actually seen CV9030s up close, I am more or less aware of their capabilities and that of their crews.

[Deezle]

The iron sighted AAA should be bad unless you are flying straight at them where they can fire short bursts and get quickly the hit by randomizing the hitting areas.

Agreed.

And then IFV like BMP-3 should just rip you down as they have automatic targeting and tracking and will get hits in first bursts if you don't change flight direction continually (even with nice curve flight you get downed).

Target tracking ground targets is one thing. Are they really capable of tracking a quick moving aircraft (an A-10 in a 350kt dive)?

[Fri13]

Agreed.

Target tracking ground targets is one thing. Are they really capable of tracking a quick moving aircraft (an A-10 in a 350kt dive)?

I am not so sure about BMP-3M (forgot that base variant in game didnt have it) but CV90 shoots fast moving air drones in first burst, those are meant for AA target training.

 

So I think A-10 is like in many other things just easy peacy because it is so slow.

 

CV90 is very likely far more accurate than even a ZSU-23-4 is, but ZSU trust to wide spread and lots of shells in flight path, instead direct hits.

[Eddie]

Speed is not overly relevant, either for air or ground targets, what matters is line of sight rate.