Ka-50 tail cut damage causes strange problem

[ramayana]

If the shark get tail cut damage(it's still alive and can fly in the game), it becomes a ghost.

 

Symptoms

 

- Hostile units can't see it, so they do not attack it.

- Radio menus assigned to that shark disappear except F12(exit), so it can't be repaired or rearmed anymore.

- TACVIEW says it's a dead unit. No more data for the shark after that.

- Any triggers and scripts for the shark do not work anymore.

 

This is not a joke, actually happens! I'm not sure this issue has been posted before but AFAIK it's always been there without any fix. And the latest DCS stable version still has it.

[Bushmanni]

DCS used to consider tailless helicopters fit for combat which created problems in the AI front. Mainly AI wingmen of hopelessly spinning tailless chopper didn't engage enemy as they still considered the tailless chopper is going to take care of the job. It was fixed by flagging tailless choppers dead but seems the same logic is applied also to Ka-50 as to other choppers with tail rotors. Hopefully this gets fixed.

[ramayana]

DCS used to consider tailless helicopters fit for combat which created problems in the AI front. Mainly AI wingmen of hopelessly spinning tailless chopper didn't engage enemy as they still considered the tailless chopper is going to take care of the job. It was fixed by flagging tailless choppers dead but seems the same logic is applied also to Ka-50 as to other choppers with tail rotors. Hopefully this gets fixed.

 

Thanks for the info. I'd say this is the most critical issue I've seen in DCS since its first release date. By the way, do DEVs even check the threads in this Ka-50 bugs and problems section? I'm thinking their first high fidelity module has been almost abandoned...

[AlphaOneSix]

The fix is for the Ka-50 to crash and burn. It can't really fly without a tail, you know.

[Devrim]

I'm confused.

 

1) How amount damage we're talking about?

2) Even very little tail damage, Ka-50 is considered as killed?

3) If it can't really fly without a tail, is there something wrong with our Ka-50's FM?

 

Thanks. :)

[ramayana]

The fix is for the Ka-50 to crash and burn. It can't really fly without a tail, you know.

Is that an official fix? :joystick:

 

I'm confused.

 

1) How amount damage we're talking about?

2) Even very little tail damage, Ka-50 is considered as killed?

3) If it can't really fly without a tail, is there something wrong with our Ka-50's FM?

 

Thanks. :)

 

1) I'm not sure 'how much damaged' exactly, it just lost its tail.

2) In my experience, no. I think complete tail cut causes it.

3) Of course it can fly without a tail. It seems that the problem is Ka-50's DM, not its FM.

 

This is track file link

http://blogattach.naver.com/07921ba8bde5e33f11f39da49b770d7cd88f759672/20160722_4_blogfile/cougar2001_1469138076046_dnhhAt_trk/server-20160719-230824.trk?type=attachment

 

Check the part of right after the humvee crews disembarked, my chopper(I was the host) hit the building and lost its tail. You'll see my chopper was still alive but disappeared in F10 map.

[AlphaOneSix]

Is that an official fix?

 

No, there is currently no fix. The real helicopter obviously would crash if it lost that much of its tail. If I could reliably reproduce the tail being removed, followed by continued flight, I'd submit it as a bug report.

[ramayana]

No, there is currently no fix. The real helicopter obviously would crash if it lost that much of its tail. If I could reliably reproduce the tail being removed, followed by continued flight, I'd submit it as a bug report.

 

 

Man that wasn't a joke? Seriously, the truth is, Ka-50 in DCS CAN FLY without a tail. Even if most of the choppers IRL would crash without tails, that doesn't mean no tail chopper should be counted as a dead unit.

 

Just take a look at the track file.

 

 

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[Rogue Trooper]

Ka-50 has two coaxial rotors... the tail would matter only in forward flight and would change the center of gravity if lost... it COULD still fly.

 

Agreed, the loss of tail would only affect CoG and directional stability.

Everything it needs to fly (engines, rotors clockwise and counter clockwise) are still operational so I see no reason for it not to continue flying in real life.

[ShuRugal]

Agreed, the loss of tail would only affect CoG and directional stability.

Everything it needs to fly (engines, rotors clockwise and counter clockwise) are still operational so I see no reason for it not to continue flying in real life.

 

unless losing the tail assembly would shift the CG forward out of the maximum tolerance for handling. One thing this sim does NOT simulate are conditions where the force the pilot would be required to apply to move the cyclic is greater than what a human could actually sustain without injury. An example of this is when hydraulic failure occurs: It has been stated by one of the devs who flies the MI-8 (which uses the same hydraulic servos as the KA-50) that he cannot even move the cyclic stick if there is no hydraulic pressure, yet in the game we can continue to fly, fight, and land safely with loss of hydraulics.

[Bushmanni]

I think there's no CG shift modeled when losing tail as you only notice it by the chopper refusing to fly nose first faster than about 120km/h. The Ka-50 tail could weigh enough to cause controllability problems. At least I have hard time believing it's light enough to not require noticeable change in stick position in hover. If you look at the Ka-50 layout, it has all the really heavy components (engines, weapons, fueltanks) right under the rotor mast. But then it has thick walled titanium cockpit with big bullet proof windows, gun and Shkval optics forward of it. All that is balanced by the tail which means it's can't be featherweight.

[Rogue Trooper]

last time I flew the kamov home and landed without the tail I had her trimmed right back leaving only a little rear ward stick travel to slow down.

 

CoG shifted big time.

 

Hydraulic oil loss is an interesting point but I believe this may be more for a cold start chopper, but I can also imagine it being a very serious nightmare in flight too when damaged.

When I have time I will look this up for attack choppers.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[AlphaOneSix]

Bushmanni is on the right track.

[ramayana]

Guys shark's FM is interesting and important topic but not the problem I was talking about here...

 

 

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