f-pole and in the notch

[colubridae]

can anyone tell me what 'in the notch' means

and also what F-pole means

 

 

please

col

[britgliderpilot]

"In the notch" is to do with the workings of doppler radar.

 

Basically, in order to filter out the ground and lock on to targets lower than you, a doppler radar will filter out any returns that have zero speed relative to yourself.

 

If a target flies at 90 degrees to you, it will have zero speed relative to you, it will be flying "in the notch", the radar will filter it out, and you will lose lock.

 

However, if you're looking UP at the target then the notch does not occur. It doesn't need to - there's no ground to filter out.

 

 

The F-Pole is a simple kinematic tactic for SARH missiles (R27, AIM-7).

Basically, the faster and higher you are at the moment of missile launch, the faster your missile will go.

 

The F-Pole tactic simply means that you fly into a BVR engagement very high, at very high speed, and hence you have a greater missile range than the enemy.

 

After you fire, you turn away and slow down, your missile wings its way towards your enemy, and before his missile reaches you, your missile reaches him and he's dead.

 

At that point his missile is no longer being guided and you've hence won the fight!

 

With ARH missiles (AMRAAM, R77) it's more complicated, since they can guide themselves after their launch aircraft has been destroyed . . . . but that's not strictly part of the F-Pole tactic ;)

[colubridae]

many thanks and that was quick

[D-Scythe]

Much of the F-pole is useless in Lock On. Getting above the target equates to being notched - furthermore, flying higher and faster doesn't yield enough of a kinematic improvement in your own missiles anyway.

 

In MP, much of the play is very dynamic and random, but in SP, you're better off staying below or level with your target. No notch to deal with.

[britgliderpilot]

Much of the F-pole is useless in Lock On. Getting above the target equates to being notched - furthermore, flying higher and faster doesn't yield enough of a kinematic improvement in your own missiles anyway.

 

In MP, much of the play is very dynamic and random, but in SP, you're better off staying below or level with your target. No notch to deal with.

 

In SP at least, you can make use of the F-Pole and then Dive Dive Dive . . . . . still helps in getting the first shot in.

[D-Scythe]

In SP at least, you can make use of the F-Pole and then Dive Dive Dive . . . . . still helps in getting the first shot in.

 

Sure, but then you waste a missile. The AI reacts instantaneously, and there is no disorientation whatsoever subsequent to missile evasion, so they'll robotically turn back into you with their perfect situational awareness and shoot you with one of their own.

 

Because of this, I found that the "shoot-first" principle only works in WVR against the AI. In BVR, the missile fly-out times are long enough to ensure that they'll have ample time to return fire if necessary. I actually have more success myself if I bait a long-range, low PK BVR shoot from the AI as I close into my own NEZ, as the AI won't shoot another missile so long as his first even has a remote chance of hitting you.

[britgliderpilot]

Sure, but then you waste a missile. The AI reacts instantaneously, and there is no disorientation whatsoever subsequent to missile evasion, so they'll robotically turn back into you with their perfect situational awareness and shoot you with one of their own.

 

Because of this, I found that the "shoot-first" principle only works in WVR against the AI. In BVR, the missile fly-out times are long enough to ensure that they'll have ample time to return fire if necessary. I actually have more success myself if I bait a long-range, low PK BVR shoot from the AI as I close into my own NEZ, as the AI won't shoot another missile so long as his first even has a remote chance of hitting you.

 

OK, shall give that a go.

 

 

My own strategy in SP is to do the max-range F-Pole for the first shot, then wait a little longer for the second before turning away and diving. Two missiles away usually results in a kill if flown correctly - the AI may evade the first, but if I fly correctly he's usually hit by the second.

 

If he's using Sparrow then no worries, if he's using AMRAAM then watch the RWR and evade . . . . . after that it's a matter of waiting for his wingman to kill yours, which is virtually certain, and then attempting to regain SA enough to engage #2!

[Maximus_G]

Much of the F-pole is useless in Lock On. Getting above the target equates to being notched - furthermore, flying higher and faster doesn't yield enough of a kinematic improvement in your own missiles anyway.

That's true, there's a "missile issue" in LO, which hasn't been fixed yet. It's in missiles max speed - it doesn't exceed a fixed value, REGARDLESS of the launch platform's speed.

It can be seen on this graph.

There are 2 launches at a large non-maneuvering target. First launch is made at 370 km/h, and second at 920 km/h.

2 curves below are missile's speeds, and 2 upper are their flight heights.

A yellow line marks engine burn-out moment.

As it can be seen, both missiles stop gaining their speeds at 3400 km/h, even though the engines continue burning. And that's why a 550 km/h advantage of the plane's speed reduces its missile's flight time by only 1 second.

[Rhen]

F-pole

 

Just to slightly correct for terminology, any of the -Poles are distances.

 

F-Pole - The distance from the launching aircraft to the target at missile impact.

 

An F-Pole maneuver is designed to maximize this distance - the theory being that the longer you can keep a foe a arms length, the more you maximize your chances of survival by not entering the weapons envelope of the bandit or more importantly not being inside E-Pole.

 

The other poles are:

 

A-Pole - The distance from the launching aircraft to the target when the missile begins active terminal guidance.

 

This is the point that you have to support your missile - otherwise it becomes a CHEAPSHOT - the brevity code for not supporting your active missile to high PRF.

 

E-Pole - The range from a threat aircraft that a drag must be accomplished to kinematically defeat any missile the bandit could have launched or is launching.

 

Ideally you'd like to be flying an aircraft that can be at A-Pole before E-Pole - something that a small RCS will bring to the table.

[D-Scythe]

My own strategy in SP is to do the max-range F-Pole for the first shot, then wait a little longer for the second before turning away and diving. Two missiles away usually results in a kill if flown correctly - the AI may evade the first, but if I fly correctly he's usually hit by the second.

 

If he's using Sparrow then no worries, if he's using AMRAAM then watch the RWR and evade . . . . . after that it's a matter of waiting for his wingman to kill yours, which is virtually certain, and then attempting to regain SA enough to engage #2!

 

Well, with the Flanker, since it's primary strength is the long-range of the R-27ER and the huge number of missiles it carries, I usually go for the low PK, long-range R-27ER shots myself (without any expectation for a kill - more like to set up the engagement in a manner which favours me). Buys me a few seconds, and if nothing else, delays a return AIM-120 shot for a second.

 

I've never had much success with the double, long-range missile shot, with ANY missile. Usually, they both just miss - the first one because of decoys, and the second one is kinematically challenged because the target begins evasive manuevers sooner due to the first missile.

 

But on the whole, I've found that there are a series of BVR maneuvers that are more efficient than the F-pole/A-pole, simply because Lock On isn't really programmed in a manner that gives the player any sort of advantage against the AI. You can put me in a single F-15C against 4 excellent Su-27s, and I'd win 75% of the time, but my tactics wouldn't be anything approaching 'realistic.'

[S77th-GOYA]

If a target flies at 90 degrees to you, it will have zero speed relative to you

 

Just in case anyone is confused by this, correctly stated, the target will have the same closure as the background behind it. It will not have zero speed relative to you.

 

Someone running from you at the same velocity you are travelling would have zero speed relative to you and those seem to be filtered out as well.

[D-Scythe]

Someone running from you at the same velocity you are travelling would have zero speed relative to you and those seem to be filtered out as well.

 

Yes, consider that a "second" notch. The first notch, the "beam" notch, is a result of your radar filtering out clutter from radar returns bouncing off the ground front of you - i.e. clutter in your mainlobe. The second notch, the one you're talking about, is the result of your radar filtering out radar returns bouncing off the terrain directly beneath you - i.e. returns from your radar sidelobes.

 

Swingkid can explain this infinitely better.