F-15C + AIM120 So Unfair!

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...its good to know it was implemented AFTER the roll-over bug that showed itself on September 10th, 1999. That 115VAC @ 400Hz stuff...glad I don't have to work on many systems like that anymore. In that system, Hertz DEFINITELY means hurts. It is SO MUCH MORE PAINFUL than getting a shock from your household electrical devices. The higher frequency just heats your skin faster. I think NATO should adopt a similar system to that of the East, every AC item runs on 240VAC at 50 Hz...none of this silly 26/115VAC @ 400Hz garbage. No NATO power grid runs at that frequency, yet our military and civilian aircraft can often be dependent on it.

[GGTharos]

After having a bit of a read on Datalinks, I wonder how reliable the Su-27's data link actually was.

Apparently the one squadron of F-15s that -was- equipped with JTIDS (others were not because it was too expensive) had reliability issues with the data link. I wonder if the Russian one also had issues (actually it's almost certain that it did)

[Ogami Musashi]

As metionned by Force Feedback the datalink on SU-27 and mig-29 gives a lot of informations.

 

As i said the SU-27 has even more informations on display.

 

About reliability, while a 100% reliable mechanism doesn't exist i didn't hear so far something about failures of the datalink, however what i know is that the datalink uses kind of narrow bandwith so that informations are not transmitted very fast BUT i do not know if it has been upgraded.

 

As said, thoses datalinkes are really about giving more SHOOT opportunities to flankers and fulcrums while JTIDS and MIDS are about giving SA to pilots.

 

So i think that would be really interesting to have it in the future.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...reliability is the Achilles heel for the F-22 also, I'm sure. I'm also sure that the Eastern equivalent of TADIL-J has had more than a few bugs, and probably STILL has. I am getting more and more integrated FIS problems these days, and OMG is it ever proving to be a prematurely-released technology.

[Ogami Musashi]

yes for sure, it is very probable the datalink is not reliable!

 

Especially because of narrow bandwith.

 

 

Interestingly, this datalink, while being old is still severly classified, especially as far as the SU-27 modes are concerned.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The R-27EA has been made just half a year ago, and is designed and made in the Ukraine, and it's not a completely new missile, just an ARH seeker head for the R-27E®(T) missile, to extend the capabilities. read: 'the stockpiles are big and crappy, and they need something that will hit something besides the ground'.

Where did you get this info? Any additional info on which aircraft platforms are able to use R-27EA? There’s this picture http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/r271.asp

claiming that China uses R-27EA on their Flankers. Could that be right?

[Pilotasso]

We need reliable sources. The site could be making propaganda. Independent sources would be ideal. If you had such as those in the Airforcesmontly magazine would be fine.

 

If this is true it only means that The R-27AE would be operational in j-11/Su-30s in china. And even the Chinese site quotes that this missile is only in the inventory waiting for the PL-12 to become operational indicating it might have very poor perfomace anyway.

 

Whats more, none of the aircraft in lockon could carry it Im afraid.

[HRZ]

I have just realised -whatever- source gets quoted it will just be dismissed as 'unreliable' by the opposing side. This is turning into a circus.

If you have a picture of a chinese SU27 loaded with AE, and if that's not enough argument, then actually NOTHING is and will ever be..oh. unless we get a Su27 pilot on these forums..but I'm sure even then, there will be people questioning his credibility.

[Pilotasso]

I have just realised -whatever- source gets quoted it will just be dismissed as 'unreliable' by the opposing side. This is turning into a circus.

If you have a picture of a chinese SU27 loaded with AE, and if that's not enough argument, then actually NOTHING is and will ever be..oh. unless we get a Su27 pilot on these forums..but I'm sure even then, there will be people questioning his credibility.

 

Then point me to otherwise cheesy sites. Everytime someone comes with "proof" of fantastic weapons configurations, It comes from from photos of mockups such as those in that venezuelan site showing the Onyx missile on the Mig-29.

 

Where are any referrences to indepent published articles? If you look to my posts I only reffer to books, never to the internet.

 

Sinodefense will let you know (or lie) only what they want you to know, period.

Heres an amusing evidence of this:

If I didnt know better I would say "in your face! AIM-120D on my countries F-16MLU with full 60 mile range!!"

But thats actualy a clipped wing dummy and the real live load is AIM-120B.

 

Even if you prove to me the R-27AE is in service anywhere no aircraft depicted in lockon can carry it.

 

BTW we are all simmers, what other side are you referring to?

[Force_Feedback]

I've read an article on missiles.ru about 27EA seeker head production getting started in Ukraine, it was maybe 6 months ago, dunno. Russia also exports active seekers to be placed inside R-27E seeker heads, that info is from the agat.ru site.

As you can see the active seeker version of the R-27 is only now entering service in limited numbers, this, I THINK, DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, is to gradually phase out/upgrade the R-27 stockpiles.

It can be that agat had a internal contract with China, to become the first export customer of that seeker, before it was offered for sale by them to other nations.

So basically there are two sources to buy seekers from, Ukraine and Russia, guess China bought them from Russia

 

As far as that photo goes, the fins are real, so is the tail section, and those proximity fuse covers wouldn't be there if it was a captive training variant, plus, it lacks the black stripes. So unless the Chinese extended the missile with tiolet rolls painted white, it may be a real missile.

 

EDIT: read the article about the agat seeker upgrade (9m-1103M) for their R-77, so maybe agat sold them a few dozen 9b-1103M seekers as well to fit the R-27ER radome, since they're almost the same it's quite possible.

 

Tasso: http://www.sinodefence.com/others/aboutus.asp

[HRZ]

Then point me to otherwise cheesy sites. Everytime someone comes with "proof" of fantastic weapons configurations, It comes from from photos of mockups such as those in that venezuelan site showing the Onyx missile on the Mig-29.

 

I was referring to Hajduk Veljko's posted picture. It's not a mockup.

 

Where are any referrences to indepent published articles? If you look to my posts I only reffer to books, never to the internet.

 

And Haduk Veljko as well. But, when he referrs to some book, you start preaching him. Get real buddy.

 

Sinodefense will let you know (or lie) only what they want you to know, period.

 

Sinodefense never lies. Western capitalist sources are full of disillusions and false informations.

 

Even if you prove to me the R-27AE is in service anywhere no aircraft depicted in lockon can carry it.

 

Yeah it can. Just use LOPE. Exlamation mark.

 

BTW we are all simmers, what other side are you referring to?

 

Actually, I was only referring to YOU.

[Pilotasso]

I've read an article on missiles.ru about 27EA seeker head production getting started in Ukraine, it was maybe 6 months ago, dunno. Russia also exports active seekers to be placed inside R-27E seeker heads, that info is from the agat.ru site.

As you can see the active seeker version of the R-27 is only now entering service in limited numbers, this, I THINK, DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, is to gradually phase out/upgrade the R-27 stockpiles.

It can be that agat had a internal contract with China, to become the first export customer of that seeker, before it was offered for sale by them to other nations.

So basically there are two sources to buy seekers from, Ukraine and Russia, guess China bought them from Russia

 

As far as that photo goes, the fins are real, so is the tail section, and those proximity fuse covers wouldn't be there if it was a captive training variant, plus, it lacks the black stripes. So unless the Chinese extended the missile with tiolet rolls painted white, it may be a real missile.

 

Usualy that information leaks into aerospace magazines. I have first heard of export offers like AESA equiped SU and migs that have not yet even been put to service yet. This is the kind of Info Im looking for the R-27AE. If it holds any shred of truthfulness it will come out soon. Untill then please, no bard like coments from single photos wich could be mockups such as the example I gave in my previous post.

 

I was referring to Hajduk Veljko's posted picture. It's not a mockup.

AIM-120D in service here RULES!!! haha :P and I got "evidence"!!!

 

http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=160253&g2_serialNumber=2

60 miles range!! honestly!:sly:

 

 

And Haduk Veljko as well. But, when he referrs to some book, you start preaching him. Get real buddy.

Sinodefense never lies. Western capitalist sources are full of disillusions and false informations.

 

Sorry I cant hold it: :megalol:

[Force_Feedback]

But then your comments are unfounded as well, and being published in some aviation magazine doesn't say squat, remember the Su-32? Su-27K That should be all true according to your thinking, and no, even without a Soviet Union there is still misinformation, prapaganda, and well, quite common, dumb/lazy reporters.

[Pilotasso]

HRZ or kenan or whatever you are:

 

I have been proved that SU-27SM is in service with R-77's in russia now. 24 aircraft. Quoted souce to me: Airforcesmonthly. Follow that example and please spare us of your dillusion tags passed onto others.

 

But then your comments are unfounded as well, and being published in some aviation magazine doesn't say squat, remember the Su-32? Su-27K That should be all true according to your thinking, and no, even without a Soviet Union there is still misinformation, prapaganda, and well, quite common, dumb/lazy reporters.

 

true, but these days its hard to denny photos of engeneering live examples in export competitions, or freelance spotters having photos of real hardware. Plus if theres footage of them at work. IRIS T AMRAAM derby Python 4. You would never get this during to cold war. And all we get from R-27AE so far is one photo that could be a real missile or a mockup or a different missile repainted, etc etc.

 

So blaim me for wanting to see more than a single photo to believe while it took multiple articles over the years for the other hardware.

[D-Scythe]

You can add the R-27EA through LOPE, but it's useless - ED made it so that it can only maneuver at 1g, so basically it can't turn at all.

[Pilotasso]

no. let him use... ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

And all we get from R-27AE so far is one photo that could be a real missile or a mockup or a different missile repainted, etc etc.

Well, here’s official United States government site referring to R-27EA missile in China.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm

 

It can’t get any more official than this. Anyway, we here have very valid source conformation that R-27EA exist. Next, I need to look for more info on the whole R-27EA project.

[Pilotasso]

Thats certainly interesting, thanks hadjuk. Will read it.

[GGTharos]

During an August 1992 visit to Langley Air Force Base, Su-27s from the Russian training base of Lipetsk were able to soundly defeat U.S. F-15s during four exercise “air combat” sessions

There was never a DACT between these aircraft.

 

10 hardpoints; 8,000kg max load; 6x R-73 AAM; 6x R-27 AAM; up to 38 100kg bombs; 4x rocket pods; 1x GSh-301 30mm cannon w/ 150 rounds; Upgrade version: 6x R-77 AAM; 4x Kh-31A/P; 4x Kh-29; 4x KAB-500; 1x KAB-1500

 

 

The SK also cannot use all of these weapons, but I suspect they're not really talking about the SK - rather an upgraded version of it which is not really an SK any more - more like SKM or something of the sort.

 

Looks like while the author at least properly attributed source, he/she failed to check them for accuracy /or/ did not understand all of them. But man, that is some heavy reading and research :)

 

Notice the sources, too - some of them were proven to not be entirely credible (but then, what -is- credible? We've even shown Jane's to not be credible on occasion :P )

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Usualy that information leaks into aerospace magazines.

This is the kind of Info Im looking for the R-27AE.

Do you have aerospace magazines from late 80’s and early 90’s? The K-27 missile program is now almost 30 years old.

[Pilotasso]

That site is US-china economic commission. They do not specialize in air combat. They may have made th all comon mistake about that Su visit to the US as a dact exercise.

 

I would also like to hear someone who has heard of the R-27AE from specialized press not the internet. I have none but brief referrences that the missile existed in plans but not quite acomplished as an operational weapon.

[GGTharos]

Same here ... I've heard the AE seeker might be used but only recently, in order to fill a gap.

[Pilotasso]

Do you have aerospace magazines from late 80’s and early 90’s? The K-27 missile program is now almost 30 years old.

 

 

Most of the stuff I still got from magazines piled up in my room is from 1998 onwards. I do have books printed in early 80's but they do not make much assumptions about anything further than the basic R-27R.

 

My lates batch of books refeer only if either R-27R/ER/EM's are loaded to wich Su variant. R-77 with the chinese and indians and RVAE troubled development.

 

Theres no mention to R-27EA per se, only that there were "atempts to develop an active version of the R-27".

 

R-27AE details are very scarce to find on the press and almost always as a missile that didnt quite make it to service. But then the authors admit theres not sure it wasnt exported either. Not even with allegations in that sense or the very few pictures avaiable.

 

If Sinodefense allegations hold any thread of truth, the missile is only in chinese service. Probably in very low numbers and less convincing perfomance than the indigenous PL-12 or the R-77 itself.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I would also like to hear someone who has heard of the R-27AE from specialized press not the internet.

I provided a highly specialized source. It is a Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker by Yefim Gordon and Peter Davison. However, that source was dismissed as inaccurate. That’s all right. I am now looking for a Flanker book from a different author and when I get some money I’ll get it and compare data.

 

K-27 missile program was developed with easy seeker interchangeability in mind. The missile body was going to be the same for all of the missiles, and the only difference was going to be in the seeker. I will speculate to say that we all might have seen R-27EA many times however were not able to distinguish it from R-27ER due to similarities.

 

That was the reason I asked GGTharos and others on this forum, if he had an actual photograph of R-27EA so that we can compare it with R-27ER and try to find distinguishable feature on it.

[GGTharos]

Yep, there's not much sense in choosing it over the R-77 ... why buy old missiles or even use old missiles whose airframes are potentially a decade or more old.