Radar missiles

[Pilotasso]

Sorry but I never heard of such immense jamming capability in my life. This standoff jamming maybe there to give the range estimation on the russian birds a use but against the F-15 it does nothing but destroy its multi engagement capability at will.

And always forces it into 1 on 1 fight where the russian planes have everything to gain from and the eagle has everything to lose from this. Specialy if the russkies can just swich the EOS on and shoot an R-27ET with or without jamming and with positive ID from datalink. In the F-15 you get no ID neither any warning that you are being shot way before you get his ID.

 

This results in an unrealistic pre-emptive SA to the russian planes. Its made worse everytime AWACS and early warning radar are present (wich they will since some of the squads have a large majority of russian plane fans) because you will know exactly who your HOJ'ing in the flanker but the F-15 driver is subjected from shooting his own and help the enemy in the same situation.

 

The fact that HOJ shots are low PK its of very relative importance because you will most likely be already in tactical disavantage by the time they can do guided launches if they didnt already did so with the ET.

 

The first thing youll see when flankers want to kill the F-15 is to make it focus on on target, swich ECM on and then off to force STT so that you get blind for his wingman. By the time you can see both and engage them silmultaneously you have about 5 seconds to do so before you die.

 

Since this jamming capability doesnt always verify but in optimum conditions I say it should be removed against the F-15 but let it be for flankers at will.

[GGTharos]

Sorry but I never heard of such immense jamming capability in my life.

 

There's nothing 'immense' about it. R^2 vs. R^4 signal being beamed to the radar. That simple.

 

This standoff jamming maybe there to give the range estimation on the russian birds a use but against the F-15 it does nothing but destroy its multi engagement capability at will and always forces it into 1 on 1 fight where the russian planes have everything to gain from it and the eagle has everything to lose from this. Specialy if the russkies can just swich the EOS on and shoot an R-27ET with or without jamming and with positive ID from datalink. In the F-15 you get no ID neither any warning that you are being shot way before you get his ID.

 

WTF are you talking about? I was talking about RL.

 

This results in an unrealistic pre-emptive SA to the russian planes.

 

The fact that HOJ shots are low PK its of very relative importance because you will most likely be already in tactical disavantage by the time they can do guided launches if they didnt already did so with the ET.

 

Again, what are you talking about? I know how the game works.

 

The first thing youll see when flankers want to kill the F-15 is to make it focus on on target, swich ECM on and then off to force STT so that you get blind for his wingan. By the time you can see both and engage them silmultaneously you have about 5 seconds to do so before you die.

 

Unless you're a bit clever, and you know what you're doing - but why are you in an x>1 vs 1 situation anyway?

 

Since this jamming capability doesnt always verify but in optimum conditions I say it should be removed against the F-15 but let it be for flankers at will.

 

 

I say it should be left as is, but give HoJ PN capability, and make sure that in TWS a bug on a strobe does not result in STT (it does not need to).

Also add kinematic ranging and angular discrimination capability, as well as the ability to select a target which you can see on the scope but is superimposed by a strobe.

 

Even giving HoJ weapons PN guidance will greately discourange the 'forrest of jammers' effect as they will start getting silently killed by AIM-7's for keeping their jammer on ;)

[Pilotasso]

Updated my post, wich may explain better my point of view

[GGTharos]

Right, but I'm not talking about what's going on in the game. I'm talking about how Jamming should work, specifically ;)

[Pilotasso]

There's nothing 'immense' about it. R^2 vs. R^4 signal being beamed to the radar. That simple.

 

Isnt this the equivalent of long distance a flash light pointing directly into your individual eyeball?

 

If so than your assuming that the russian planes can always be in the best possible situation to do it everytime flawlessly and that IRL american planes would be blind against every plane that had an ECM pod neatly set for a turkey shoot. Thats what we get ingame.

 

WTF are you talking about? I was talking about RL.

 

Its pretty simple, it may be a real life item but in order to be usefull in the game every F-15 has to be blind in every situation on the other side. I was making the absurd obvious.

 

Again, what are you talking about? I know how the game works.

 

Your remarks almost seem to come from a person who has never used the Su-27 Online. You never noticed when you have the radar datalink that the designated strobe always gives away the respective emmiter in the radar MFD?

 

In a jamming furball you can try each strobe individualy untill the intended plane icon in the datalink disapears.

 

Unless you're a bit clever, and you know what you're doing - but why are you in an x>1 vs 1 situation anyway?

 

I say it should be left as is, but give HoJ PN capability, and make sure that in TWS a bug on a strobe does not result in STT (it does not need to).

Also add kinematic ranging and angular discrimination capability, as well as the ability to select a target which you can see on the scope but is superimposed by a strobe.

 

 

I get the distinct feeling that your playing possum with me this time.

How the hell can you engage 2 targets with a 13 miles burn through. Its simple. Either you decide to shoot HOJ first or risk it down to 13 miles for locking them on TWS, and then theres a worse thing. They may already be too close to be within the radars viewcone. Add the difficulty of having extra quick before their missiles come too close. Its not for the heart fainted.

 

Either you do HOJ or not at 13 miles there a large probablilty that 1 of the flankers has gone under your radar for an easy kill.

 

Even giving HoJ weapons PN guidance will greately discourange the 'forrest of jammers' effect as they will start getting silently killed by AIM-7's for keeping their jammer on ;)

 

This sentence makes you apparently unaware how things work in multiplayer.

ECM forest and F-15's being brought down by coordinated jamming pairs is the most common routine online.

 

Your telling me you never seen a strobing plane play decoy while to ohter one gets you? You may see a clean contact on radar but the jamming one could be also the one to kill you if you make the wrong choice.

 

This is why I said youll be forced to be 1 on 1 and forget abou the other because of the short range of the burn through. Its a classic by now and I dont know how you could say that you cannot understand what Im talking about.

[GGTharos]

Pilotasso, lose the superiority complex and read what I wrote again, twice.

 

Following that, attempt to ascertain what it is I am attempting to get to, and realize it has nothing to do with your skills, or your experience in the Su-27. Wake up, cause you are -way- off- track.

[Pilotasso]

WTF? LOL :lol: Talk about missreading...

 

Now Im the one confused... what did anything I wrote had to do with my skills?!!! (or lack there off)

 

Im merely telling you the current state of things.

 

Standoff jamming = (lower SA for F-15) +(useless radar TWS mode down to 13 miles).

 

Enter variable=" fighter to fighter eyeball blinding has never actualy hapened in combat"

Compute= eyeball blinding: always on.

Get the picture now? (= rethorical questions to make the absurd obvious)

[GGTharos]

WTF? LOL :lol:

 

Now Im the one confused... what did anything I wrote has to do with my skills?!!!

 

Im merely telling you the current state of things.

 

 

I already know the current state of things :P

Back to the read again, twice part, you.

[Pilotasso]

Do you? ECM forest is then a thing I just made up in thin air.

BTW I read your text 3 times. you misread mine. I updated my last post

, wich I do numerous times to try make things clearer.

[GGTharos]

... And you're still not getting what I'm saying. Your flashlight analogy is relatively correct, but it misses out the peculiarities of radar.

 

The Sorbitsyia is -very- effective, and it is basically a stand-off jammer.

Operationally one out of four flankers in a flight will carry it, IIRC.

 

Which part of 'PN in HoJ will start making people turn their jammers off' did you not understand?

 

Which part of 'Enabling track of Strobes in TWS' did you not understand? ;)

[tflash]

I like your proposal, GG, but

 

- 'PN on HoJ' capability seems to me based on supposed capabilities, is there evidence such thing is implemented IRL?

 

- fact remains that burnthrough should be function of radar emission power, which seems not the case in Lockon.

 

- if Sorbitsya is so powerfull, it should prevent the jamming aircraft to launch missiles also, no?

 

Or should I reread some part I missed ;)

[Force_Feedback]

An ecm complex is usually designed not to interfere with the carrier's radar, we don't have different ecm modes either in lomac, it's either on or off, in the real planes there are lots of submodes, making the ecm system able to jam particular types of emittions.

[GGTharos]

I like your proposal, GG, but

 

- 'PN on HoJ' capability seems to me based on supposed capabilities, is there evidence such thing is implemented IRL?

 

Plenty, including the Navy's ECM operator site saying so, and IIRC documentation that R-27 does so (but don't quote me on this one). Jamming takes away Advanced PN, and other things, but it does not take away 'good old' PN.

 

- fact remains that burnthrough should be function of radar emission power, which seems not the case in Lockon.

Correct.

 

- if Sorbitsya is so powerfull, it should prevent the jamming aircraft to launch missiles also, no?

No, because your radar is not his radar -and- you're not pointing it at your radar -and- you can time it to work with your radar. But it -can- interfere with your own missile's datalink (the antennas are pointed to you)

 

Or should I reread some part I missed ;)

[Pilotasso]

I think its easier to moderate the efects of jamming on the F-15 than implementig that marvelous PN on HOJ capability wich simply wont happen in LOBS and we will get stuck with unrealistic tactics untill the next SIM with AA capable planes wich wont hapen for a long time.

 

I have a better idea. the jamming strobe should impose on the F-15's radar only when the return signal is weak during a notch low and slow manuevers.

And the burn through shouldnt force the radar to STT to prevent the ECM blink cheat.

On the flankers side, since it cannot multi engage, there would be a simple anti ECM blink capability by re-locking the target from TWS or STT into the strobe HOJ automaticaly. If the player fears to be lured into that target he can simply look at the datalink and swich undesignate button.

 

Not as neat as GG's idea but should be much easier and faster to do.

[GGTharos]

Real SPJ's 'blink' to break your radar lock, actually.

[Pilotasso]

yes but fighers have ever evolving measures to prevent that. LOMAC has NONE. ECM is 100% efective in the game hence I think your justificatios from the RL in your replies to Cali's post shouldnt be taken in absolute terms or always in the best efective equivalent circuntances.

[GGTharos]

What I responded with to Cali is merely one method of jamming with one method of countermeasure. LOMAC's measure against jamming is burn-through. It wasn't a justification, it was a 'this is what should be happening in LO' suggestion, as opposed to the current model.

 

There is -no- such thing as making jamming irrelevant. ECCM will ensure that you aren't out of the fight, but your capabilities will be degraded.

 

And believe you me, this 'rapid jammer blinking' that's employed right now will attract HoJ missiles like fresh cow manure attracts flies once HoJ is given PN ;)

[Pilotasso]

And believe you me, this 'rapid jammer blinking' that's employed right now will attract HoJ missiles like fresh cow manure attracts flies once HoJ is given PN ;)

 

So your saying ED is going to something about this?

You dont have to elaborate too much. :)

[GGTharos]

I'm only saying I brought it up and I cried a lot, I am not saying they will do something about it: Not my place to confirm or deny such things.

 

For now, all I can say is, we focus on the heli, but as with FC, there's always been 'something for everyone' thrown in. I don't think ED intends to outright ignore the fighter crowd :)

 

I -can- tell you that ED has a lot of future plans, but I do not in fact know what will be implemented in BS and what will not. And I'm not talking about your specific pet peeves (your to mean anyone's) ... I am generalizing -very- broadly.

 

EDIT: I am also saying that the 'fix' for the jammer blink is relatively simple without the need to implement complex ECM models :)

[GGTharos]

I wish ED would fix this cause the 13 mile burn-thru sucks. And I think it only helps the flankers since they carry more missiles and have better range. And it takes away from the TWS of the eagle.

 

That is the whole point of ECM. Like I said, if they fix it ... there should be -no- burn through.

 

Plus it really sucks when EVERYONE flies with ECM on, like it's part of the start-up precedure.

That indeed can be stopped, -simply- by giving PN to HoJ ... then HoJ shots will actually hit their targets!