S-300 vs F-117A

[Vekkinho]

Hmm, funny 'cause I can't see anything being dropped from F-117.

 

It just breaks hard when 4 or 5 miles away from undefended target and heads home, lands and parks into a HAS.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I just finally tested the Su-27 theory, and MAN is this one screwed up game. When flying the Su-27, the SPO-15 lights up the instant I come above the radar horizon, which it didn't do with the F-117 exterior model. So, obviously, AI radar emission depends on the aircraft. Also, the SA-6 site didn't fire on my Ukrainian Su-27 until I was within about 4km of the radar. So...something fishy is definitely going on with the ground radar modelling. Heh...what the hell...it goes along with SA-9s and SA-13s being able to intercept AGM-65s. Its something that would never happen IRL, but I have adapted my tactics to deal with it...I just play "chicken" with the launch vehicle.

 

Edit: Vekkinho, did you try F6 view after your F-117 rolls away? I saw two GBUs hit the control tower.

[Vekkinho]

Yup I tried it, and it wasn't available because there was nothing for a Weapon view.

 

Like I said the F-117 never came close enough to drop anything, it might be equipped with GBUs (that are invisible) but they should turn visible as soon as they're dropped, I suppose...but nothing.

 

Looks like ED modelled stealth GBUs and HiRCS F-117A...

 

And I tried with F8 target view that remains intact. F-117 guy already landed and parked inside hangar.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Crap, man...that's weird. I think the radar screw up goes back to what I found when I did the leg-work for my ELINT chart. If I was flying an aircraft which was friendly to the ground emitter, I NEVER saw it on the RHAW, which is also complete horsefeathers. Friendly AND hostile ground emitters are visible on the RHAW/TEWS IRL. ALL air threats are visible in-game, regardless of their intention or nationality, so why not ground threats? :doh: Honestly, how hard is it to give a radar a given envelope for a fixed atmospheric condition and have the public domain MTL of the aircraft RWR in question see or not see it? We're not even talking about the complexities of RCS, just simple mathematical formulas relating to RF attenuation in a standard volume of air. I like the eye candy in this game, but the sensor modelling is terrible. So is the armament, along with most of the Encyclopedia...its half-arsed and horribly inaccurate. I'm hoping we won't have to hear the "Dash One" excuse again, since those manuals for the F-15 and A-10 were barely opened, if at all, obviously.

[nscode]

Guys, guys...the F-117 pilot is a complete idiot who jumped out of the burning F-117 instead of ejecting.

 

I think that I remamber something about him ejecting prety low.. that's why the seat is close. And he was luckey to stay in one peace... after the initial damage by SAM, the sky was light up with flak that was ment to keep the plane from recovering.

[Vekkinho]

So the final conclusion would be that SAM sites and ground radars treat every plane the same way, no matter of RCS. Both Il-86 and F-117 are detected and engaged at the same distance by AI SAM crew.

 

RCS is somehow modelled in LOFC but unavailable for editing. Probably hard coded in LockOn.exe. Like I said, it's not pretty accurate and in a need of a major rework.

 

I understand that S-300 is a piece of art SAM system but I'm not sure it can precisely engage F-117A at 40km distance. In LO ita acts like it's got "buy me, buy me" banner all over it. Of course those F-117 vs S-300 tests have never happened IRL for us to compare with LO parameters but I've noticed that I have to rely on my EOS to designate F-117A only from rear aspect. I can't achive a proper lock with onboard radar systems of MiG and Suhoi planes.

 

Super AI is a common bug in LO. Planes sometimes pull 20G maneuvers and their radars and other weapon systems act much better and faster than they do when player tries the same.

[GGTharos]

Um, no, this isn't quite right. It just so -happens- that F-117 is detected at the S-300's max engagement distance. If you try with a smaller SAM you will see that engagement distances differ.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Which I did with a Kub, and there was a pretty big difference in engagement range between the F-117 and the A-10. However, flying in a Ukrainian Su-27 actually got me 2 km closer than I did with the F-117, to the 1S91, before I was fired upon. So, either the Su-27 has a lower RCS than the F-117, or the ground radar reaction to RCS of different aircraft is inconsistent. ;)

[GGTharos]

I'm not claiming there aren't problems ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

I wonder if other ground radars react the same way to the Su-27 in LOMAC. If they do, it'd make a hell of a SEAD platform if only it could carry AGMs. 4km is almost close enough to see the whites of the eyes on the SAM operators through the TVM. :D

[GGTharos]

Depends on the radar. A PAtriot will say 'hi' to the 27 at good range ;)

 

Also note that jammers affect attack range, and so does closure.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I didn't use any jamming, just the same conditions...no jamming, same altitude, same speed (between the F-117 and Su-27 anyway ;) ), etc. In every test case, the missiles fired at me were easily defeated with just maneuvering, no CM employed at all. This includes the mighty S-300. He can't hit me, but he sure as hell can keep me from going offensive on him. :D

[GGTharos]

They do fire too early - hopefuly a better classified will be used in the future for SAM operators, so they start launching inside Rtr's etc.

[Vekkinho]

The only problem I found with the Patriot is it's phazed array capability.

 

Partiot's detection range isn't much of a something, especially when you're flying Su-27 with fuel capacity made perfect for roundabout route. Entire Patriot complex can easly be approached from side or from behind where it can't see you and taken out by GSh-23...

 

So you place Patriot somewhere in the map and set it's heading to let's say 270 deg, search and track radars will cover 120 degs in that direction (from 210 to 330). All other directions remain blind in eyes of the Patriot and perfect to plan your SEAD route. So you gotta make sure you defend your Patriot with umm...Hawks, Avengers and Vulcans and prefferably CAP package covering it's back...

[GGTharos]

And this is why PAtriots are not deployed singly, why they are ringed with Avenger and stinger teams, and so on and so forth.

 

If one patriot won't do the job, get two. If two won't do it, get three.

 

In real life, you'd have Patriot 'belts' or 'lines' depending on your tactical situation, so one patriot would cover the other's back etc.

[Ardillita]

It is not necesary to do this on FC, just place a Patriot tracking and detection pointing to the back of the first ones and the patriot site will cover the hole 360ª

[Vekkinho]

And that's exactly what I do. I simply add two more STR units to Patriot site that cover remaining 240 degrees. It's like this:

 

First str unit is facing 0 deg, sacon one is at 120 and the third is at 240 degrees...

 

This turns Partiot into ZRK taht covers entire ring.

[Groove]

Do the S-300 has seen any combat engagement besides this tragically shot down of a civilian airliner over the Black Sea ( 4th October 2001 ).

[nscode]

I don't think so. Where there is S-300, there is no combat engagement. ;)

[Groove]

I dont know nscode. Maybe they are slightly overrated.

[nscode]

Just look at all the fuss that is created when someone wants to buy it. (eg Greece)

 

When someone asked a nato spokesmen in 99 if it is true that we had some he said: no, we are sure now that they don't have any, 'couse if they did we would have lost at least half a dozen aircraft in the first night :)

 

They are not magic. But they are very good.

[GGTharos]

Yep, it's a very powerful 'I'm not trading this for anything less than six of your aircraft' kinda system ... or ten, I forget what the quote was.

[Groove]

Im with you on the potential of this system. But i think even that there is a mobile system out there - there are more tomahawks than S-300.

 

Of course a smaller land with not that much air-power then USA should fear S-300 variants more.

 

Im especially curious about this possibility to shoot down everything, including low flight vehicles. If you start to scan for a incoming hostile you betray your positions. And you have to start scanning early if you want to take full advantage of the Long-Range SAM system.

 

Maybe we see it soon in action. ( Iran bought some system afaik ?).

[jurinko]

Do the S-300 has seen any combat engagement besides this tragically shot down of a civilian airliner over the Black Sea ( 4th October 2001 ).

 

Wasn´t it a R-77 hit?

[GGTharos]

Uhm, it was neither ... the system used was an SA-5