33 vs 27

[Belphe]

How do you think Su-33 would do in a guns-only dogfight against Su-27 (similar pilot skills). A tiny bit of extra thrust and canards vs 3 tonnes less...

Edited October 4, 2017 by Belphe

[Nick Bones]

Luck

 

I would probably say that it would be a mirror match, and ultimately luck would win the day.

[DarkFire]

Assuming no drastic mis-match in weight, the most skillful pilot would win. The most skillful pilot always wins.

[GGTharos]

Su-27 would generally fare better.

[jackmckay]

Depends whose wings broke off first. It is well known and documented that Russian planes loose their wings on daily regular basis. Western one don't have that problem because they are (hellou) obviously superior and can compensate its pilot population idiocracy. ED wins man. In RL things are contrarily of DCS perception - quite tightly bonded to aerodynamic performance limit and pushed to the edge of pilots body (and missile performance ofc). Also, guns on Sukhoi's are taken from long range sniper rifle so pilot must turn off the engines and hold its breath to gain crucial stability while positioning itself for a shot. On every F's in DCS guns are supereffective and perform like steel buckshot equipped shotgun, almost fire and forget feature. Very neat features, right? Real unbiased Sukhois are, unfortunately, still far away from light of simday.

 

[Wizard_03]

Less weight so 27 I think, sorta like F-14D vs F-14B

[Belphe]

Depends whose wings broke off first. It is well known and documented that Russian planes loose their wings on daily regular basis. Western one don't have that problem because they are (hellou) obviously superior and can compensate its pilot population idiocracy. ED wins man. In RL things are contrarily of DCS perception - quite tightly bonded to aerodynamic performance limit and pushed to the edge of pilots body (and missile performance ofc). Also, guns on Sukhoi's are taken from long range sniper rifle so pilot must turn off the engines and hold its breath to gain crucial stability while positioning itself for a shot. On every F's in DCS guns are supereffective and perform like steel buckshot equipped shotgun, almost fire and forget feature. Very neat features, right? Real unbiased Sukhois are, unfortunately, still far away from light of simday.

 

 

Haha! :D Very good! :)

 

Add to this the lightning-fast roll response on the Eagle.

[PeaceSells]

How do you think Su-33 would do in a guns-only dogfight against Su-27 (similar pilot skills). A tiny bit of extra thrust and canards vs 3 tonnes less...

 

After flying both in guns-only dogfights against AI, to me the 33 felt significantly less maneuverable than the 27. Maybe there's some catch that I don't know about the 33, but I don't wish to be in the cockpit of a 33 if things turn into a dogfight.

 

EDIT: It seems that if you use lots of 'stick deflection limiter override' you can maneuver at very low speeds and have some kind of advantage. You'll have to use rudders to make the aircraft roll though.

Edited October 18, 2017 by PeaceSells

[Belphe]

I am still torn between these two fine birds. Which one is the better dogfighter (even though none of them is supposed to serve this role)? Which one can stay on the edge for longer? Which one can cross it and come back victorious?

 

I have observed ten consecutive "guns only" expert-level AI engagements won each time by the Su-33 over the Su-27 equal in weight. I am aware of the fact that the AI is cheating in DCS but doesn't the fact that they both are make it irrelevant?

 

Fighting an expert-level AI F/A-18C made me feel much more "able" in the Su-33 despite of what the public (you) is generally saying - that the Su-27 should be superior in such abstract engagements.

 

The following came to mind:

 

- Thanks to the canards the Su-33 is capable of pushing and maintaining stability at higher AoA.

 

- The marginally more powerful engines allow it to "hang" in the air for that little bit longer in crucial moments.

 

- Increased weight allows the Su-33 to accelerate faster in a dive.

 

- Bigger wing surface makes the Su-33 achieve a lower stall speed.

 

I know I'm asking for much but would anyone be willing to test both aircraft extensively and present their findings? Ideally, two pilots on similar level dueling for an evening or two.. I'm up for it if anyone fancies to join but my skill is rather mediocre...

Edited January 10, 2018 by Belphe

[Fri13]

I am still torn between these two fine birds. Which one is the better dogfighter (even though none of them is supposed to serve this role)? Which one can stay on the edge for longer? Which one can cross it and come back victorious?

 

I have observed ten consecutive "guns only" expert-level AI engagements won each time by the Su-33 over the Su-27 equal in weight. I am aware of the fact that the AI is cheating in DCS but doesn't the fact that they both do make it irrelevant?

 

That is the thing.... I don't know why but the Su-33 AI will win far more likely for some reason. But I think that Su-33 should be more maneuverable as it has canards to increase lift and high AoA performance, as more thrust.

So I could see that the difference should be like a <10% in dog fight that eventually leads to situation that Su-27 pilot must break off or do something as Su-33 will keep gaining step by step the six. And when fuel gets consumed and weight drops.... Things start to change from the starting point.

[GGTharos]

What's your definition of maneuverable?

[Aviators]

i prefer 33!

[PeaceSells]

What's your definition of maneuverable?

 

Better dogfighter, IMO. And, to me, that is the 27... (but I only have experience using both against AI).

[GGTharos]

While I agree with your conclusion, 'better dogfighter' is as vague as 'more maneuverable' :)

[PeaceSells]

While I agree with your conclusion, 'better dogfighter' is as vague as 'more maneuverable' :)

 

Well, as I understand, 'maneuverability' is kinda vague because I guess it would be hard to come up with a number to define it. You can have better maneuverability at certain speeds but worse at other speeds, better turn radius but worse turn rate, better sustained turn rate but worse instantaneous turn rate...

 

I guess 'better dogfighter' is also hard to define with a single number, but you can always take note of dogfight results...

[probad]

27 is the better dogger, end of story

 

the explanation why is readily found elsewhere on this forum and any aeronautical text, and i'd suggest doing some actual learning rather than pseudoscientific tests with the ai.

Edited January 10, 2018 by probad

[GGTharos]

You can't define any of those with a single number :)

 

Maneuverability is a collection of stuff (all of this 'stuff' gets numbers or more specifically charts assigned to it, like you pointed out). A 'better dogfighter' requires not only maneuverability but there also some other factors, how you can use said maneuverability, visibility (it's great if you can turn on a dime, but if you can't see your bandit, what good is it?) etc.

 

So it's all certainly quantifiable, I'm just saying that saying 'it's more maneuverable' doesn't mean much. Similarly, taking dogfight results can work with 'two pilots being equal', but are they ever? :)

 

Well, as I understand, 'maneuverability' is kinda vague because I guess it would be hard to come up with a number to define it. You can have better maneuverability at certain speeds but worse at other speeds, better turn radius but worse turn rate, better sustained turn rate but worse instantaneous turn rate...

 

I guess 'better dogfighter' is also hard to define with a single number, but you can always take note of dogfight results...

[PeaceSells]

27 is the better dogger, end of story

 

the explanation why is readily found elsewhere on this forum and any aeronautical text, and i'd suggest doing some actual learning rather than pseudoscientific tests with the ai.

 

Actual results rank higher than any 'explanation' you may think you have for which plane is the better dogfighter. On top of that, aeronautical texts refer to the real aircraft, not DCS.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeaceSells

[PeaceSells]

Similarly, taking dogfight results can work with 'two pilots being equal', but are they ever? :)

 

I agree, you'll never have a 100% accurate result, but you could have a pretty good idea...

[Belphe]

Actual results rank higher than any 'explanation' you may think you have for which plane is the better dogfighter. On top of that, aeronautical texts refer to the real aircraft, not DCS.

 

Exactly, especially "it's better because I say so" explanations.. I also agree with your second statement: real life =/= DCS.

 

As to the cockpit visibility factor Su-33 has an advantage, again..

[PeaceSells]

More specifically...

 

I guess a 33 pilot can try to drag the fight to the 33's domain: very low speed tight turning, where it's significantly superior to the 27. But at the same time, a good 27 pilot will probably try to avoid that and bring the fight to where the 27 is much better: sustained turns at higher speeds. I guess a 27 pilot would have the advantage at avoiding the 33's domain, more than the other way around.

 

Against AI, I can fly a 33 in its domain and win, but I can also fly a 27 in its domain and win. But I suspect that if I did that against humans, I would get beaten pretty hard in a 33.

[GGTharos]

A 33 pilot has a tiny advantage in high AoA regimes - you already have to be in position to take advantage of it. That's it.

 

Aside from that, it is disadvantaged or equal in almost all other measures (acceleration, sustained/instant turn rates, roll rates).

 

So is the 27 the better dogfighter? Yes. Do people know how to take advantage of this? Probably not; the differences are not razor thin, but they're not huge either.

[esb77]

The Su-33 does have one gigantic advantage over the Su-27 for the average DCS player, that I suspect is illustrated by this quote that gets the physics very, very wrong:

 

- Increased weight allows the Su-33 to accelerate faster in a dive.

 

 

The advantage being that if you carrier launch the Su-33 the new flight model forces you to stay under a certain payload limit in terms of fuel and weapons, and strongly encourages you to burn up some fuel at the start in full AB.

 

As opposed to the Su-27 taking off from an airfield, which people tend to load up as if it's an An-124, and then complain about sluggish performance.