TAC 11 - Uzi11 - frist engagement type 2 instead of type 3

[Emuyen]

Hi there,

 

First of all: Thank you for all A10C Qualification campaigns. I enjoyed every mission so far and I like how the instructor shows no mercy. ;) I recommend this campaigns to everybody. Keep it going!

 

Possible bug:

The first task of FAC Uzi1-1 is a GBU-12 type 2 drop. I enter the correct UTM coordinates, slew my TGP to the waypoint and find the tank.

Report IP Inbound and the FAC starts lasing. I put the TGP on LSS mode and nothing happens. No detection. If I drop the GBU-12 without correct detecion I get an "ABORT" call.

 

After having this problem 2 times on the "full" and 2 times on the "practice" mission I checked Recon Stewart's fantastic playthrough and saw that this first Task from Uzi 1-1 is a type 3 with self-lasing.

Link to his video:

 

Idk if this is a bug or changed on purpose. Is the fac supposed to laser designate or should it be a type 3 like in Reckon's Vid?

 

Fly safe

 

Emuyen

[Sabre-TLA]

It should be a type 3 like in Recon's video. There could be some recent game engine changes that now allow the Kiowa's to lase but we will have to retest to be certain.

 

The mission doesn't care how the targets get destroyed, only that they do so if you can kill it by whatever means possible the mission will continue.

 

What version of DCS did you detect this in? Was it the OpenBeta?

[Emuyen]

Thank you for the fast reply.

 

On the first 3 attempts I used up the Vul Time trying to find the laser or looking for other targets. But the coordinates are clear and only one tank is there. So I restarted the mission.

 

On the 4th try (yesterday) I did 2 inbounds trying to detect the laser with no luck. On the 3rd inbound i normally dropped CCRP. 5 seconds before drop the mighty Sabre instructor told me to check out, vul time is used up. I pickled anyway and got an angry "ABORT" right after GBU12 release.

 

Then Uzi told me to gun down the APC northwest of the smoke mark. After that Colt 1-2 didn't told me to call Hammer 1-1. I called Hammer 1-1 anyway on TAD 61 and Hammer told me "no tasking available. So I terminated the mission.

 

Next time I find time to fly I'll record the track. I'll also kill the tank with self lasing to see if I get that ABORT call again.

 

Btw. I like how the radio calls improved from campaign to campaign.

 

Off-topic: Are there more maple flag campaigns planned?

[Sabre-TLA]

Just replayed the mission in the current DCS WORLD release and it played fine.

 

I had no problem picking up the laser from UZI 1-1 (very cool and it played the way I hoped it would with the FAC - Kiowa able to lase the targets).

 

Looks like all TAC Types (1, 2 and 3) were represented as well which is exactly what we wanted when it was originally designed.

 

Make sure you hang around CHEVY (IP) and don't zoom in too close to the target to give the TGP a chance to detect the laser energy after you call LASER ON. Once DETECT is visible on the MFCD then select SPOT and it will guide the GBU-12 right onto the target once you drop within CCRP parameters.

 

I forgot how much fun that mission is when it works properly.

 

Please try our suggestion and see if you can get the laser detected by staying close to CHEVY.

[Emuyen]

Thank you Sabre. I'll try again tomorrow (I hope).

Maybee I zoomed in too much.

 

Today, I thought that maybe I have forgotten zu put in the correct laser code too.

 

Really learning much with your campaigns. Looking forward to apply evrything to the Red Flag Campaign.

[Nooch]

I'm also on this mission currently. Near the end of the vul period I dropped a gbu as briefed by the JTAC and got a "terminate, you've dropped a weapon in a no fire zone" even though I dropped on the right target (which was laser designated) and outside of urban areas...

Edited December 3, 2017 by Nooch

[Sabre-TLA]

Likely you dropped while flying over an urban area.

 

As per the brief:

"Weapons release is not permitted in these zones unless specifically authorized."

 

The triggers are setup on weapons release. Check your position before weapons release to ensure you are outside any urban areas.

[Nooch]

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'll redo the mission today and hope I'll pass it this time.

[Nooch]

I re-flew the mission and failed once again... After the third JTAC announced "no further tasking available you may depart" the FE said "You have only 2 min vul time remaining and there are still targets left" instead of telling me to RTB. Two minutes later, things didn't go better. FE told me to contact the JTAC and check out but problem is I couldn't do it. He already checked me out when he announced no more tasking was available.

I then headed for the fence out and range exit waypoints thinking FE might catch things up from there but instead I got an angry "knock it off, you exited the range without permission". :doh:

 

Also, I was suprised when I released my first GBU and I decided not to lase because the JTAC was already doing it for me. Suprisingly the bomb went off target and I couldn't figure out why.

 

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

 

I saved the track, here is the link.

[Sabre-TLA]

Sounds like you missed some targets from the earlier JTAC engagements.

 

We'll review your track and give some feedback.

 

In the meantime you can compare your flight to Recon Stewart's video (the targets should be the same):

 

[Nooch]

I missed a couple of GBU passes so I guess it must come from there. I made sure I destroyed all targets assigned by the JTACs though.

[Sabre-TLA]

We just reviewed your track and it was a good attempt. You killed 6 of the 7 targets required for the mission.

 

It appears Target 4 wasn't killed as it didn't show in the log and we suspect you killed a target close to it instead. When you hear "SHACK" that's a good indication you hit the correct target. If you don't hear that then you likely hit the wrong target.

 

The JTAC will say that is your target but when targets are close together they can sometimes get it wrong. It's best to check the actual MGRS coordinates too. We noticed that you couldn't detect a laser on one of the targets you had in the TGP. That's a good clue that you are looking at the wrong target even though JTAC will say that is your target.

 

The terminate occurred because you exited the range before killing all the targets or before playtime was over. The FE indication that targets were remaining was likely in reference to Target 4. You still had time to kill it before the overall mission was over but thinking that you already had killed it would have been a challenge to find it again.

 

A few suggestions but this is the way we play vs others so to each his own:

 

1. Use WILCO and CANCEL when given a target tasking. WILCO to acknowledge the tasking and CANCEL to remove the target triangle on the TAD. With lots of targets it can get confusing when there are too many target triangles in close proximity.

 

2. When you don't get a target triangle make a WAYPOINT at the MGRS coordinates given in the nine-line. Set your STEER POINT DIAL to MISSION and select the new WP you just created. Then it's easy to slew your TGP to that area and you know you are looking at the correct MGRS coordinates (provided you entered them correctly). You could do this for all target taskings as it's a good way to verify you are looking at the right area.

 

3. I believe it is possible to burn out the JTAC laser as it does have a timeout (not sure exactly what it is) but your first GBU drop it appeared the JTAC stopped lasing before the weapon impacted so that might have thrown it off. The second GBU drop indicated an AUTOLASE FAILURE so likely there wasn't any laser energy detected for it to follow. You should hear the JTAC say "LASING" when they are lasing - nothing if they are not. You can self lase the target too as the mission only cares that you kill the targets. You can burn your own laser out if you have it on for too long though.

 

4. Given that you only have 15 mins with each JTAC you have to be efficient with your target setup and flight path. Get the TGP on the coordinates as quickly as you can while setting up for your attack run - easier said than done. Time spent on re-positioning or in searching for targets will eat into that 15 min VUL period increasing the pressure to get all the targets before the VUL period expires. You have to be quick with all your techniques.

 

There are practice missions for each TAC mission that start at the range so you can get a sense of what is expected in each qual mission without the lengthy start-up and flight to the range. These can help improve your efficiency before flying the qual missions.

 

Overall it was a very good attempt and I'm sure you will ace it on the next try.

[Nooch]

Thanks for the detailed reply, it is very much appreciated. I finally was able to kill all the targets and pass the mission with a Q rating. There was a little issue though. As I wasn't fast enough and didn't get the last target before vul time was over, FE asked me to check out, which I then did. Then nothing... To avoid failing the mission like last time ("knock it off, you exited the range without permission") I decided to recontact the JTAC and finish the job anyway. This time, the FE was happy and everything went well from there. So there seems to be an issue with the mission sequence of events if you need to check out and head back home before finishing the job.

[Emuyen]

I had the chance too to replay this PO.

It's the release version of DCS. No Open Beta.

 

I can't detect any laser with LSS on the first type 2 GBU-12 drop from Uzi 1-1. So I went with CCRP and self lasing. The rest worked perfectly.

 

passed PO11 and 12.

[Emuyen]

Thanks for the detailed reply, it is very much appreciated. I finally was able to kill all the targets and pass the mission with a Q rating. There was a little issue though. As I wasn't fast enough and didn't get the last target before vul time was over, FE asked me to check out, which I then did. Then nothing... To avoid failing the mission like last time ("knock it off, you exited the range without permission") I decided to recontact the JTAC and finish the job anyway. This time, the FE was happy and everything went well from there. So there seems to be an issue with the mission sequence of events if you need to check out and head back home before finishing the job.

 

Hey Axel,

 

look closely at the briefing material and memorize the IP (ingress points). Before doing your attack run you should move to the ingress point.

 

Example 1: IP Chevy is north of WP Bravo. From Chevy to the targets is no urban area in the flight path.

 

Example 2: In PO12 the IP Banks is north of the bullseye at a river fork. No urban area. When attacking with guns try to fullfill the attack heading. So when it tells you attack heading 0-250, and your ingressing from west, you need to fly north of the reservoir and then attack heading east to south (Attention: it's a bit confusing. When you call IN you say from where your coming and not your attack heading. So you call "IN from south or northwest" but your attack heading is somewhere between 0 and 180). If you attack directly from IP Banks you may fly over the urban area hugging the water reservoir.

 

Very, very good campaign to learn the A10!:thumbup:

 

Edit: If you run out of vul time just check out an check again in. I use to set the clock in the cockpit to know how much time is left.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Emuyen

[Nooch]

When he says "final attack heading 30-270" for example, it means you should be heading 30° when diving on the target and 270° right after pickle, correct?

[Sabre-TLA]

No it defines a cone of fire between the two degrees.

 

If your nose it outside the range then you won't be cleared hot as you could be pointing at a friendly or facing some other threat.

 

So if given a FAH of 30 to 270 then make sure your attack run is on a heading between those two values. You may have other instructions for heading off the target after the attack has been made given other threat locations.

 

With respect to the VUL time there is some wiggle room in that if you are engaging a target and the FE says your VUL time has expired you can still finish off your target engagement. In real-life the JTAC might cancel the engagement but that's not modeled in DCS from what we can tell.

[Emuyen]

When he says "final attack heading 30-270" for example, it means you should be heading 30° when diving on the target and 270° right after pickle, correct?

 

IIRC, 30-270 has to be understood as "open heading window". You can attack from any direction between 30 and 270. Which is more than 75% of the circle. This is not the same like 270 - 30 which is a bit more than 25% of the circle.

 

One quote from here: http://portfolio.krauselabs.net/evidence/11-5.pdf

 

"Final attack heading. “Final attack heading X” or “Final attack heading x-x” where x are

degrees magnetic or cardinal directions. Final attack heading is a restriction often used for gun

or rocket runs which limits the attack heading on the target. This is often done to deconflict fires

from the aircraft with nearby friendly ground troops or to keep the aircraft at distance from a

nearby air threat. When it is given as a range, it is a cone or sector of fire that is acceptable."

 

Quote taken from here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3878388/JTAC_Final_Attack_Heading

 

"JTACs/FAC(A)s assign attack headings for several reasons: to increase ground troop safety, aid in aircraft acquisition by the JTAC/FAC(A), aid aircrews in target acquisition, mitigate collateral damage, meet laser safety cone attack restrictions, and facilitate fire support coordination. Controllers may employ final attack headings/windows that allow aircrew to maneuver on either side of the attack heading. This gives aircrew more flexibility in prosecuting the target while maintaining the required degree of restriction on the aircraft heading. Attack headings/windows might be particularly useful when the attack aircraft are using coordinate dependent weapons, since it is possible the weapon final attack heading may significantly differ from the aircraft heading. Attack headings also allow RW aircraft to maneuver over terrain or urban sprawl to enhance delivery while remaining survivable. Aircrews and JTACs/FAC(A)s must understand that the attack headings may differ between both the aircraft and weapon. JTACs/FAC(A)s must weigh the advantages of issuing an attack heading with the disadvantages of restricting aircraft tactics. Final attack geometry provided as part of the CAS briefing in the form of headings or directions are by definition �Restrictions� and therefore must be readback."

 

Edit: Sabre was faster :-)

[Nooch]

Gotcha. It makes a lot more sense now, thanks!

[Emuyen]

Just for the record.

Replayed the mission yesterday just for fun. UZI now gives a Type 3 mission again.