vs. SARH

[porky]

After a bit of practice in my Flanker I am now proficient at dodging those pesky 120s the F-15s like to send at me. All goes well 1v1 and 2v2 at BVR.

 

But when I get 1v2, and the fight becomes WVR, the 15s just fire a Sparrow and I don't have a chance. I have no situational awareness at this point completely; I can spot the telltale trail of the Sparrow and my RWR tells me somethings inbound, but I can't time a climb, like I do with the ARHs, or evade the thing with violent manoeuvres to save my life.

 

Is it just a case of breaking hard, dumping chaff and praying? Or is there something I'm missing?

[504Goon]

Or is there something I'm missing?

Don't get into 1vs2 situations! :) Especially with a flanker, you'll always have 1 free fighter engaging you, with very little what you can to him while still remaining on the offence for the second guy. You could try shooting the other bandit at longer ranges (gain great altitude advantage) to force one of them defensive in the early stages to create separation with them. Then continue with the closer bandit, try to go for an ET kill, and then kill the remaining.. but i really don't see any good "tricks" or manouvers that will get you out of the trouble in 1vs2.

[GGTharos]

It's a matter of relying on your RWR to dodge the missile too much ... the timing must be instinctive, not based on RWR (as handy as it is, it is NOT very realistic and it WILL be fixed eventually). Once you get the instinctive part happening, you'll be doing well again.

 

And, what Goon said. Realistically speaking, your ability to handle two well-flown F-15's with a single ship should be close to nothing - regardless of the type of weapon they carry, and if they carry actives, you're even worse off.

 

For an F-15 (again, realistically speaking) a 1v2 fight is not quite so bad if he's carrying actives - unless the other two birds are also equipped with actives, which can make the F-15 pilots life harder.

[Pilotasso]

After a bit of practice in my Flanker I am now proficient at dodging those pesky 120s the F-15s like to send at me. All goes well 1v1 and 2v2 at BVR.

 

But when I get 1v2, and the fight becomes WVR, the 15s just fire a Sparrow and I don't have a chance. I have no situational awareness at this point completely; I can spot the telltale trail of the Sparrow and my RWR tells me somethings inbound, but I can't time a climb, like I do with the ARHs, or evade the thing with violent manoeuvres to save my life.

 

Is it just a case of breaking hard, dumping chaff and praying? Or is there something I'm missing?

 

1) F-15 and AMRAAM are overdue for fixes. The "pesky" AIM-120 is too easy to dodge at present time.

2)You have more range with your R-27's than the Sparrow, if your getting killed by AIM-7's that easely then your making something wrong.

3)1VS2 against an aircraft that was designed to do precisely that and you expect to win? Arent you being too greedy there? ;)

 

Let me humbly give you an advice:

never go against F-15 on equal terms much less in numerical disavantage. It might work now that the AMRAAM is botched, but even then, against someone who knows how not to be dragged into the Flankers best playground will make your life particulary frustrating. The AIM-120 is going to be deadlier in the Black shark addon and you will no longer be able to do stylish slaloms past them. So dont become dependent of that in your tactics.

 

REmenber, all russian missiles in this game are better than american counterparts, even in BS that will continue to happen, so if you think yours are still not good enough to hit your targets, then its time to rethink what you may be doing wrong. Im telling this because I can already picture hordes of mig and flanker drivers yelling that American missiles are too good in the comming addon. Those missiles will still suck, but less so. It will be the current tactics though that will suck the most as they will be utterly inadequate.

[GGTharos]

Pilotasso hit the nail on the head.

After Black Shark, missiles will likely be even deadlier when they get the advanced sensor model and advanced flight model.

 

Remember: Fight missiles with aspect, and try to see them. If you can't see them, you're in big trouble, just like RL. As you may have guessed, staring at your RWR to help you evade an ARH in RL hasn't helped anyone yet. It's meant to tell you you've been shot at, not when to dodge, so quite relying on it. Use it to help you AFTER you learn to do the evasion by instinct.

[GiGurra]

I'm really sorry to spoil your fun here...I partially agree with both previous posters, but... WAFM or WASM wont be implemented into lomac with BS, possibly later on, but from talking to the testers this will not be the case with BS' initial release. As for not being able to outperform the amraams in terms of maneuverability, I must disappoint you again. No physics changes whatsoever to amraam in BS. What WILL be changed is chaff resistance, meaning you will have an even less chance of dodging a missile if you employ countermeasure techniques. This is at least the info I got from GrayGhost. You will STILL be able to "turn at last second and win", unfortunately. This even more reduces the capability of the already ...NERFED f15 =). They could fix this easily through increasing the proximity fuse range of missiles, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. Currently it's something like 10-15 m from the center of the aircraft.

[GGTharos]

No GiGurra, it will give the F-15 more capability, since people won't be able to fly towards the F-15 and just drop chaff to dodge the 120 without any evasive maneuvers at all.

 

1v1 I agree, the short-legged AMRAAM is an issue. In team play however, you can easily make up for it. ;)

 

 

And you are correct - WAFM and WASM will come some time after BS (WAFM may be in BS, but WAFM alone won't fix all the problems), but meantime we can still make BVR more realistic than it is right now.

 

And more realistic means: You don't ignore missiles fired at you.

[Pilotasso]

GiGurra your a bit off target in your comments. GG said pretty much everything you said, you didnt said anyhting that wanst already specificaly been said. You just missed it by reading too fast. ;)

[GiGurra]

I disagree with this giving the 15 more capab. - POSSIBLY in a bvr situation where the non-f15 wishes to stay bvr. Notch him till you're visual, fire all you've got and barell out those rams - done :(. Currently fighting missiles with aspect will kill your chance to break it, pretty much, since it quote : takes into account how many chaff are in view :unquote. Meaning the only way to break em being chaffing while heading towards the missile and then getting the hell away from it. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this and that it will actually be adressed in BS, but from what I've heard this is not the case.

[porky]

Don't get into 1vs2 situations! :) Especially with a flanker, you'll always have 1 free fighter engaging you, with very little what you can to him while still remaining on the offence for the second guy. You could try shooting the other bandit at longer ranges (gain great altitude advantage) to force one of them defensive in the early stages to create separation with them. Then continue with the closer bandit, try to go for an ET kill, and then kill the remaining.. but i really don't see any good "tricks" or manouvers that will get you out of the trouble in 1vs2.

 

Ironhand's tactics are much the same in his "Clipped Eagles". After tossing an ET at the trailing Eagle, he then treats the fight as 1v1 until the lead Eagle is down. I'm fine with this...but when the fight with the trailer become WVR I have problems. It's not particularly the fact that I'm in a 1v2 situation...it's the fact that I'm getting into a CAC 1v1 situation, which I'm not used to.

 

It seems I need to practice evasion at long range without using the RWR before I get into close range. Then I can pull up on gut feeling rather than staring at my RWR all the time :D At these times I long for TrackIR...hehe

 

Pilotasso...I'm getting shot at with the Sparrow all the time not because of timing my launches wrong, but (I think) because I'm following Ironhand's tactics and throwing an ET out first, which, as he mentioned, shortens the range of all the R27s. Maybe (this might be a completely nooby suggestion because I have hardly any experience using these tactics) I should hit the first Eagle with an ET on IRST mode at shortish range, then swing around and hit the second Eagle in a similar manner. But I'm guessing if neither Eagle notices me sneaking up on them in the first place, they will both notice the smoke trail of the ET and subsequently my surprise advantage will be lost. Then the same situation will occur as I have been trying to avoid...a short range fight with 1, maybe even 2 Eagles.

 

I will experiment when I get a chance to get flying again :D

 

It would be interesting to know the tactics of other people concerning the use of the RWR, IRST and being in close. For all I know I've just posted a nice long post of gibberish ;)

[GGTharos]

I disagree with this giving the 15 more capab. - POSSIBLY in a bvr situation where the non-f15 wishes to stay bvr. Notch him till you're visual, fire all you've got and barell out those rams - done :(. Currently fighting missiles with aspect will kill your chance to break it, pretty much, since it quote : takes into account how many chaff are in view :unquote. Meaning the only way to break em being chaffing while heading towards the missile and then getting the hell away from it. I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this and that it will actually be adressed in BS, but from what I've heard this is not the case.

 

That is the case. ;) At least, a bunch of us made a pretty big fuss about it and asked for this to be fixed one way or the other.

Barrel rolling will still work, but barrel rolling also reduces your own SA and is a bit risky in general. In 1v1 it'll work on maybe, but once you're team on team, forget it - it'll let you survive a couple missiles, then your opponent's wingman will eat you.

[GGTharos]

Ironhand's tactics are much the same in his "Clipped Eagles". After tossing an ET at the trailing Eagle, he then treats the fight as 1v1 until the lead Eagle is down. I'm fine with this...but when the fight with the trailer become WVR I have problems. It's not particularly the fact that I'm in a 1v2 situation...it's the fact that I'm getting into a CAC 1v1 situation, which I'm not used to.

 

 

Well ... I don't fly against the AI much - it's not a good opponent (not for me anyway) but it doesn't mean I beat'em all the time either.

 

I can tell you this much: Don't expect to take on 2 well flown F-15's with human vPilots and win, no matter how much you beat up on the AI. Some of us know how to make you lose even MORE SA than you are losing right now in those situations, TrackIR or no ;)

[GiGurra]

That is the case. ;) At least, a bunch of us made a pretty big fuss about it and asked for this to be fixed one way or the other.

Barrel rolling will still work, but barrel rolling also reduces your own SA and is a bit risky in general. In 1v1 it'll work on maybe, but once you're team on team, forget it - it'll let you survive a couple missiles, then your opponent's wingman will eat you.

 

Agrees fully. Problem: Coordinated 2v2+fights are very rare in public servers =/. Doable, possible, but mainly restricted to planned squad battles. Don't get me wrong, overall I do believe this is a step that needs to be taken, but I'm unsure if overall MP balance should/will take a beating from partial Realism. We shouldn't get into that discussion here.

[GGTharos]

It will be okay, you'll see. This kinda stuff will work out; as for more coordinated 2v2's ... Goon and I are looking into ways of 'making it happen'.

[Pilotasso]

Team work used to be frequent online in the old days. But now the majority of the known squad menbers went into the shadows and its more difficult to play but against new guys or airquakers. I think this is partialy because the SIM as it stands now rewards such ways of playing, when it gets more realistic it will atract back the serious players and leave the NOVALOGIC apologists no other choice but to improve their standards as well.

[GiGurra]

Airquakers :). Thats a good squad name!

[Ardillita]

I was planning to make a tutorial with Ironhand... not much time to do it right now, but if you find it usefull, here I give you 1 of the tracks I made. The tutorial will be about exactly your post: multi engagements useing the flanker.

I hope you find it usefull, and with some encouragement, I think I will do the tutorial :P.

First look at the track without changeing the views. later cahnge them to see the maneouvers. As somebody said, ewr is good, but many times the evasion has to be done useing some instinct (actually, is pure maths, you have to calculate the distance, speed of the missile and you will have a pretty close idea where the missile is)

 

here is the track:

 

http://flanker-argentina.com.ar/vs_2F15_solos.trk

 

Comments are preciated

[fulcrum251]

with LOFC's ECM we can't launch R-27 at long range.so 1 vs 2 is a big trouble.

put missile at 3/9 line and keep climb-dive-climb-dive,we can escape all missile.but ATTACK is more important.

[porky]

I was planning to make a tutorial with Ironhand... not much time to do it right now, but if you find it usefull, here I give you 1 of the tracks I made. The tutorial will be about exactly your post: multi engagements useing the flanker.

I hope you find it usefull, and with some encouragement, I think I will do the tutorial :P.

First look at the track without changeing the views. later cahnge them to see the maneouvers. As somebody said, ewr is good, but many times the evasion has to be done useing some instinct (actually, is pure maths, you have to calculate the distance, speed of the missile and you will have a pretty close idea where the missile is)

 

here is the track:

 

http://flanker-argentina.com.ar/vs_2F15_solos.trk

 

Comments are preciated

 

Thanks Ardillita, very helpful track. The evasion techniques are completely different to what I'm doing at the moment, I'm pulling up looking at the RWR, which makes it quite difficult to evade multiple missiles that come in quickly like you did. Snaking and timing turning into the missile looks a good technique, albeit difficult...the 120s missed your nose by an inch! I'll give it a go later.

 

From what I hear is that the 27ET will not be able to fire at a head on target 40 km away. You are going to have to wait til the correct guidelines are meet in order to fire it. The ET was designed to be fired at retreating targets not head on ones.

 

So you're saying I should not bother with ETs in these engagements? Toss an EM/R first instead of the ET? Wouldn't that bring about loads of missile evasions as the second Eagle will have plenty of time to fire off his load while you concentrate on guiding the EM/R at the first Eagle?

[Pilotasso]

Pilotasso...I'm getting shot at with the Sparrow all the time not because of timing my launches wrong, but (I think) because I'm following Ironhand's tactics and throwing an ET out first, which, as he mentioned, shortens the range of all the R27s. Maybe (this might be a completely nooby suggestion because I have hardly any experience using these tactics) I should hit the first Eagle with an ET on IRST mode at shortish range, then swing around and hit the second Eagle in a similar manner. But I'm guessing if neither Eagle notices me sneaking up on them in the first place, they will both notice the smoke trail of the ET and subsequently my surprise advantage will be lost. Then the same situation will occur as I have been trying to avoid...a short range fight with 1, maybe even 2 Eagles.

 

I guess you failed to understand what is written between the lines on those tactics. ;)

ET's are used at 40km and beyond where it will act like an AMRAAM except it wont give the oponent any warning. Im not going to tell you how its donne because these R-27ET's "tactics" comes out of a game bug that has been too much of an online scourge that needs to be set right. Again dont become dependent on it, this will be looked into in BS and may or may not be unviable as a tactic in the new addon. 99% of the times I fire it only when I have seeker lock (OK I admit it I do fire it away before lock sometimes, I get that pissed off)

 

AI still cheats more than human do, so again, dont expect to go VS the world and win specialy against the F-15. Dont listen to Sci-fi tactics with the ET because this missile is able to phone home all the time but only in 1.12a.

I garauntee you that if you get hooked on these now you will regret it later and come crying you cant hit anyhting.

 

Use R-27/77 first, use IR seekers last. Thats how you should educate yourself. Also, again, dont go head to head against multiple F-15's, if your not a top dog, you wont win anytime soon. So pick one F-15 and try shoot it by surprise so that the other gets isolated. Dont get yourself targeted by all of them at the same time. Head to head = mistake, Surprise is still the best weapon.

 

Remenber, the Su-27 is not nicknamed Flanker for nothing ;) That is the key.

If you want the same ARH advantage that the F-15 has use mig with R-77's. Thats the best missile in this game. Also the F-15's radar is so flawed in this SIM that it wont matter much online.

[Chizh]

I did a test on the 120 and 77 in FC, the 77 comes off the rail about 200 mph faster then the 120. And after about 7 seconds of flight the 77 as a speed advantage over the 120 of about 150 mph. Look here http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=21345&page=3

 

 

Here is the test that I ran

 

"I just ran a test of off the rail speeds on the 120 and 77 the results are,

 

120 = 1770 off the rail

 

77 = 1924 off the rail

 

both test were done at 26,000 feet and around 350-375mph

 

so to go along with your post the 77 did retain speed better then the 120. The 120 dropped speed like it had a parachute behind it. <--- as Rugg said. So the 77 has a total speed over the 120 by 275-300mph and it doesn't lose speed as fast.

...

It is not correct.

R-77 have a more power motor and consequently greater max speed. But it have more drag than AIM-120 and greater speed loss rate.

[Pilotasso]

Ingame it doesnt look like that, it sure doesnt feel like it. The AIm-120 flies like an airbrake, not the R-77. I have tried to LOPE it on the F-15 and I arrived at the conclusion that the 120 behaves much like you say about the R-77's bigger drag ratio. The R-77 PWNS the 120 in all regimes so much that even if it does have a higher drag ratio it is more than compensated by its speed advantage. I know that it wont be corrected but 120 is not nearly this slow IRL either. It barely hits mach 2.5 max speed mark when it should be closer to mach 4.

[OldFrankHog]

GrandSlammed by the ED guy :smartass:

[D-Scythe]

Ingame it doesnt look like that, it sure doesnt feel like it. The AIm-120 flies like an airbrake, not the R-77. I have tried to LOPE it on the F-15 and I arrived at the conclusion that the 120 behaves much like you say about the R-77's bigger drag ratio. The R-77 PWNS the 120 in all regimes so much that even if it does have a higher drag ratio it is more than compensated by its speed advantage. I know that it wont be corrected but 120 is not nearly this slow IRL either. It barely hits mach 2.5 max speed mark when it should be closer to mach 4.

 

I think Chizh would know what he's talking about ;) But if you still have doubts, do a low altitude test and fire an AIM-120 and an R-77 and record their speeds 5 seconds after burn-out, 10 seconds, etc.

 

High altitude, it's not that apparent, because all missiles retain their speeds pretty well (thus the extra speed the R-77 is retained much better).

[Pilotasso]

Will do when I get home but I wasnt saying that he didnt reflect the truth, rather that 77's higher drag factor is not felt. Out of my memory I can pull of the fact that the 120 falls short in chases down to 2 miles while the R-77 doesnt even sweat to do that job.

 

WAAAAAAAAM.....KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM