[REPORTED] INLET ICE Warning message

[BSS_Sniper]

The manuals are correct, you just are not interpreting them correctly. That’s not an opinion.

 

 

I'm not sure many on here realize what icing conditions are and how other factors such as air speed affect icing.

[Rainmaker]

"Inlet Temp of +5°C should prevent icing" leaves absolutely nothing in need of interpretation. That's direct and straightforward.

 

The sensor that you are using has absolutely nothing to do with the Inlet Ice caution. Two different systems. The Inlet Ice sensor and the engine inlet sensors are two completely seperate systems. Again, you don’t understand the system correctly.

[Rainmaker]

I'm not sure many on here realize what icing conditions are and how other factors such as air speed affect icing.

 

Not many, but give people a book or two they can read and misunderstand and they will argue about it for days... :)

[BSS_Sniper]

Not many, but give people a book or two they can read and misunderstand and they will argue about it for days... :)

 

 

That's kind of my point. lol They read a book without knowing everything else that goes with it, that they should know to understand it.

[Hog_No32]

That is why we stupid rookies are so grateful to have real folks over here that knows it all and come down to our levels to enlighten us.

[BSS_Sniper]

That is why we stupid rookies are so grateful to have real folks over here that knows it all and come down to our levels to enlighten us.

 

 

I hope you're being sarcastic. lol It's not about that, it's about the few that are nasty in these forums for no reason and then hide behind quotes from manuals that they most likely don't know anything about.

[Knives]

The INLET ICE caution is designed to come on when 0.025 inch of ice has accumulated on the inlet ice detector, located in the left inlet.

 

So, there is ice on the sensor. But, the danger is as little as 0.5 inch of ice ingested by the engine from the inlet lip can result in compressor stalls and major FOD.

 

Regardless of what is INLET TEMP (it is not a measurement of OAT). The recommendation as follow from NATOPS:

 

==============

20.1.2 In Flight

 

1. ENG ANTI ICE switch -ON

2. PITOT ANTI ICE switch -ON

3. Adjust airspeed to provide at least +5°C (+10°C preferred) INLET TEMP on the DDI engine display.

 

If INLET TEMP of at least +5°C not possible

 

4. Climb or descend out of icing danger zone (see figure 20-1). Monitor INLET TEMP and Mach. If time and fuel permit, climb to a safe altitude. Altitudes above about 25,000 feet or ambient temperatures below -30°C will generally prevent icing since the water droplets are frozen and will not adhere. Descend only if you are sure that ambient temperature is well above freezing at a safe altitude below.

==============

 

The reason behind (INLET TEMP of at least +5°C) is "With no ice visible on the aircraft, an INLET TEMP of at least +5°C should provide sufficient aerodynamic heating to prevent ice accumulation on the LEFs and inlet lips." in short (heat due friction)

 

Also read the right side note on the graph

 

But if ice is visible. An extra limitations for AoA, throttles, bank angels and maneuvers just to prevent ice from detaching from the inlet lip and being ingested by the engines.

 

It is clear in the manual, but we are not discussing physics. We are discussing the logic behind DCS that trigger INLET ICE caution even at low altitudes and warm temperatures, if it is correct or not or WIP.

[Hog_No32]

I hope you're being sarcastic [...]

 

Half yes, half no. I agree with you that just reading the NATOPS and drawing completely wrong and ill-logical conclusions is not the way to go and those that do should be advised on hwo to interprete this or that. That is what has happened here - all good so far. BUT I have to say that at least your previous post and the way you wrote it came across a little bit arrogant. In my culture it is not a very polite way to talk ABOUT someone‘s shortcomings to others while te person you are talking about is present. Perhaps it wasn‘t your intention but at least that is how those posts came across for me. Please accept my apologies if you meant it in a different way.

 

Also, I believe it should in general be appreciated when folks go over a 900+ pages document and try to find references there. Again, if someone draws false conclusions from that for whatever reason, he or she should kindly be advised by those who know better.

[Knives]

@Knives:

 

There are many more questions:

-Does ED simulates humidity?

-Does ED simulates ice accretion?

-Does ED simulates ice ingested damage?

 

If answer to any of this is no then the message itself is meaningless.

 

If message is trigged when ice is not present on left engine inlet, it's obviously not correct behavior.

Exactly. Answers to these question will help a lot.

 

But my experience with Ka-50 and icing conditions without switching on Anti-Ice resulted in engines shutdown mid flight.

[Hog_No32]

I thought so too, Knives. I‘ve experienced pitot tube icing in the A-10C a couple times when I forgot to put the pitot heat to ON (yeah, who needs checklists..:music_whistling:).

 

But I was thinking that might also be just a function of the switch being in the OFF position for a specific amount of time at or above a specific altitude regardless of the environmental conditions. Unfortunately, I mostly flew the default campaigns missions and in there, IIRC the weather conditions would permit icing (partly cloudy at around 11k feet with 15°C surface temperature), so I can‘t really tell if was actually simulated because the DCS engine itself has icing modelled or if was just coded as a simulated failure mode as described above in the A-10C model itself.

[BSS_Sniper]

Half yes, half no. I agree with you that just reading the NATOPS and drawing completely wrong and ill-logical conclusions is not the way to go and those that do should be advised on hwo to interprete this or that. That is what has happened here - all good so far. BUT I have to say that at least your previous post and the way you wrote it came across a little bit arrogant. In my culture it is not a very polite way to talk ABOUT someone‘s shortcomings to others while te person you are talking about is present. Perhaps it wasn‘t your intention but at least that is how those posts came across for me. Please accept my apologies if you meant it in a different way.

 

Also, I believe it should in general be appreciated when folks go over a 900+ pages document and try to find references there. Again, if someone draws false conclusions from that for whatever reason, he or she should kindly be advised by those who know better.

 

 

Not at all trying to be arrogant. My point is that people like to pull quotes from manuals and use that as justification to be nasty without actually knowing how to interpret what they are presenting. In almost all cases of icing the aircraft needs to first be in icing conditions. Then on top of that, if flying in excess of certain air speeds, icing isn't even an issue, unless of course you get a warning but that's a different conversation. I'd venture to guess that most have no idea what constitutes icing conditions. That isn't meant to be nasty, but no one should come in pasting charts and screaming without having a good working knowledge of what they are presenting. It's the attitude I'm referring.

[BSS_Sniper]

I thought so too, Knives. I‘ve experienced pitot tube icing in the A-10C a couple times when I forgot to put the pitot heat to ON (yeah, who needs checklists..:music_whistling:).

 

But I was thinking that might also be just a function of the switch being in the OFF position for a specific amount of time at or above a specific altitude regardless of the environmental conditions. Unfortunately, I mostly flew the default campaigns missions and in there, IIRC the weather conditions would permit icing (partly cloudy at around 11k feet with 15°C surface temperature), so I can‘t really tell if was actually simulated because the DCS engine itself has icing modelled or if was just coded as a simulated failure mode as described above in the A-10C model itself.

 

 

I'd be interested to know if you were actually flying in visible moisture when you got that warning. I'm guessing probably not and that isn't correct behavior. Also, it isn't necessarily the OAT or TAT that comes so much into play, but it is the SAT. I don't know, but doubt DCS has gone this far into modeling proper icing.

[mvsgas]

LOL, Rain;

Are you having flashbacks? Feels like troubleshooting with pilots again? Just CND it, it will be ok. :D

[Rainmaker]

LOL, Rain;

Are you having flashbacks? Feels like troubleshooting with pilots again? Just CND it, it will be ok. :D

 

 

LoL. Frackin’ Inlet Ice dude...it’s crazy and so mind boggling for people to understand and it’s one of the simplist systems out there.

[BSS_Sniper]

Icing is connected to TAT (that is a basic amateur pilot knowledge), so inlet temp is perfect for icing evaluation.

 

 

You are watching SAT for icing conditions. Who do you fly for? I already know the answer and this is the attitude problem in these forums I was talking about. Thanks for the great example...

Edited July 9, 2018 by BSS_Sniper

[mvsgas]

LoL. Frackin’ Inlet Ice dude...it’s crazy and so mind boggling for people to understand and it’s one of the simplist systems out there.

 

But the same thing happens on all the aircraft. Maybe is the way pilot manual are written compared to ours.

[Rainmaker]

But the same thing happens on all the aircraft. Maybe is the way pilot manual are written compared to ours.

 

Human ability to make the simple things complicated...

[Hog_No32]

I'd be interested to know if you were actually flying in visible moisture when you got that warning. I'm guessing probably not and that isn't correct behavior. Also, it isn't necessarily the OAT or TAT that comes so much into play, but it is the SAT. I don't know, but doubt DCS has gone this far into modeling proper icing.

 

Frankly, I don‘t remember if the icing occured exactly and exclusively while in the clouds but I don‘t think that was the case. I certainly flew through them on most missions though.

[Rainmaker]

Exactly. But they keep quoting each other being disrespectful again and again.

 

"Who do you fly for?" Jesus, what a rude kid.

 

 

Haven’t seen very many questions asked in this thread on system operation. Seen a lot of people claim they understand how it works though without having any actual experience with the system.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Haven’t seen very many questions asked in this thread on system operation. Seen a lot of people claim they understand how it works though without having any actual experience with the system.

 

So explain it then. Why, given the chart provided in the NATOPS indicates icing danger area based in inlet air temperature, is it not valid? Since the inlet air temperature sensor is likely to be a form of TAT probe, which is a perfectly sensible way of judging whether icing conditions can exist.

[Rainmaker]

So explain it then. Why, given the chart provided in the NATOPS indicates icing danger area based in inlet air temperature, is it not valid? Since the inlet air temperature sensor is likely to be a form of TAT probe, which is a perfectly sensible way of judging whether icing conditions can exist.

 

 

You can evaluate the air at the turbine inlet by looking at the engine page, you cannot evaluate whether an atmopheric condition exists for icing or whether or not the Inlet Ice sensing probe is currently in an icing condition by using that same parameter. People are trying to directly associate the two and that is incorrect.

[Crew Dog]

LOL, Rain;

Are you having flashbacks? Feels like troubleshooting with pilots again? Just CND it, it will be ok. :D

 

And while we're at it, don't forget to make the WUC 01000 and sign it off "X 799!":megalol:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

You can evaluate the air at the turbine inlet by looking at the engine page, you cannot evaluate whether an atmopheric condition exists for icing or whether or not the Inlet Ice sensing probe is currently in an icing condition by using that same parameter. People are trying to directly associate the two and that is incorrect.

 

So why does NATOPS indicate you can? You might be right, but you're not explaining this at all well.

[Rainmaker]

And while we're at it, don't forget to make the WUC 01000 and sign it off "X 799!":megalol:

 

I’d use someone else’s 5 lvl man number and no 7 lvl in the inspected by just to be a bada$$. Don’t threaten me with a good time.

[Crew Dog]

I’d use someone else’s 5 lvl man number and no 7 lvl in the inspected by just to be a bada$$. Don’t threaten me with a good time.

 

I got one better, next time you walk by CTK, listen for some dumb 3 speeds MAN #, and downgrade the X (pilot's write EVERYthing up as that in AMC) to a diagonal using theirs