BFT08 - Emergency Manual Reversion Landing

[Sabre-TLA]

Thanks for the feedback.  We will investigate it.  One thing we noticed the last time we tested was it was best to get level and trimmed and slow the speed down but keep it above stall before beginning the manual reversion test.  You do need to manage airspeed once the gear is dropped so leave enough altitude to increase speed if necessary (nose down).

If you attempt it again please post a trk file so we can review it.  The latest 2.9 update has fixed many of the trk file issues so hopefully it will be easy to see the behavior and compare it to our tests.

[Emuyen]

17 hours ago, Sabre-TLA said:

Thanks for the feedback.  We will investigate it.  One thing we noticed the last time we tested was it was best to get level and trimmed and slow the speed down but keep it above stall before beginning the manual reversion test.  You do need to manage airspeed once the gear is dropped so leave enough altitude to increase speed if necessary (nose down).

If you attempt it again please post a trk file so we can review it.  The latest 2.9 update has fixed many of the trk file issues so hopefully it will be easy to see the behavior and compare it to our tests.

Thanks for the quick reply.

I recorded a try in the A10C II and a try in the A10C Legacy:

• Before the Left Hydro Failure: Trimmed-out carefully the plane and reduced the speed slightly.
  • A10C II: The oscillating and initial pitch were again very violent. Managed to regain control of the plane.
  • A10C Legacy: Initial pitch same as A10C II, however the oscillating was less violent. Managed to regain control of the plane.
• Lowering the LG:
  • A10C II: Went down like a brick. No chance.
  • A10C Legacy: No problems at all.

Managed to land the A10C Legacy safely.

Now, to eliminate pilot stupidity (mainly to avoid wasting your time), I will re-try in the A10C II and upload the outcome.

Fly safe

[Emuyen]

 

On 11/2/2023 at 1:46 AM, Sabre-TLA said:

Thanks for the feedback.  We will investigate it.  One thing we noticed the last time we tested was it was best to get level and trimmed and slow the speed down but keep it above stall before beginning the manual reversion test.  You do need to manage airspeed once the gear is dropped so leave enough altitude to increase speed if necessary (nose down).

If you attempt it again please post a trk file so we can review it.  The latest 2.9 update has fixed many of the trk file issues so hopefully it will be easy to see the behavior and compare it to our tests.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 7:00 PM, Emuyen said:

Thanks for the quick reply.

I recorded a try in the A10C II and a try in the A10C Legacy:

• Before the Left Hydro Failure: Trimmed-out carefully the plane and reduced the speed slightly.
  • A10C II: The oscillating and initial pitch were again very violent. Managed to regain control of the plane.
  • A10C Legacy: Initial pitch same as A10C II, however the oscillating was less violent. Managed to regain control of the plane.
• Lowering the LG:
  • A10C II: Went down like a brick. No chance.
  • A10C Legacy: No problems at all.

Managed to land the A10C Legacy safely.

Now, to eliminate pilot stupidity (mainly to avoid wasting your time), I will re-try in the A10C II and upload the outcome.

Fly safe

As promised, I flew again the mission with the A-10C II (this was the 4th try). Finally, I landed the aircraft safely in Manual Reversion Mode.

In comparision to the landing with the A-10C Legacy, I reduced my speed below 200 KIAS. The initial pitch was not so violent and the oscillation did not occur at all. The loss of control after lowering the LG from the previous tries occurred mainly because I lowered the LG above 200 KIAS.

For future reference in case this question arises again:

• Make sure to reduce speed to below KIAS 200 before the "left hydro failure". Mind that the Speed Brake will not be available due to the preceding "right hydro failure".
• Make sure to lower your landing gear below KIAS 180.

@Sabre-TLA To prevent this question, you may consider adding the two above bullet points to the mission briefing/documentation (or as text/voice input from the instructor if this does not cause too much effort).

Link to Youtube Video (how do I insert YT videos? the embed code seems not to work)

PS: Please let me know if you still want to see the .trk files for the A-10C Legacy, failed A-10C II and/or successful A-10C II attempts.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Emuyen

[Sabre-TLA]

Glad to hear you found a success path for the mission.  Next time we update the missions I'll add the hints and tips as you suggested.

No need to provide the .trk files as you now know how to make it work.

If anyone else has a problem with it I'll refer them to your post. 

Thanks again and please report if you find any other issues with the missions.  We continue to make adjustments as the game engine evolves.

[Beam-on]

On 6/8/2021 at 4:06 PM, Sabre-TLA said:

I wonder if it's related to the previous failures occurring before the MR is started.  Previously we had added stores to the wings as some had reported more stable flight with the stores mounted.  We will do some more testing to see if we can isolate the issue but it's likely not something in the mission itself as the game engine controls the flaps and flight dynamics.

The mission will end with a sufficient score to continue the campaign (even if you failed the mission).  This is to resolve issues where users would get stuck on a mission and give up on the campaign because they couldn't get past the one mission.

 

 

Thanks to everyone in this thread, there is some very useful information here.  A comment and a question...

Before the most recent 13 Nov (or so) update to DCS, I was not getting any of the triggers for the random failures (CDU, AC gen, hydro, etc) -- even waiting for the failure until the instructor said "you failed to do that correctly...".  This occurred in both the practice and actual missions.  Since the update, all of the triggers seem to be present again, which is great!  Whether it was the update or I needed some repair to my installation, I do not know.

Anyways, the other thing that occurred with the update is that I had my first experience with the erratic behaviour (probably because the hydraulics never went out before!).  With the help of this thread, I managed to keep everything under control and was able to land well.

I wondered about the scoring, if I may ask?  I always get a Q-minus.  I can let go of my perfectionism, but I am curious what I must be doing wrong.  For navigation and maneuvers, I receive Q-, but everything else is Q.  I am not breaking speed, altitude or heading during any part of the flight.  However, of course, I have some erratic behaviour once both hydro failures occur.  Could this be taken into account in the scoring?  If it's not possible to obtain a Q on this, I will move on, but if it is, I usually keep practicing until I get it.  It seems to be beneficial.

Many thanks!

[Sabre-TLA]

Without a trk file to review it's hard to determine exactly what tripped the trigger to give the Q- rating however I've reviewed the triggers and the navigation test trigger is set for any deviation or delay in course, altitude or speed. 

So, for example, if you hear the FE say "Maintain 220 knots!".  Then the program has found you either going too slow or too fast and this would set the flag value to indicate you deviated from the last ordered instruction.  There is some wiggle room around the stated speed but not much (+ or - 10 to 20 knots).

Likewise if the FE has to repeat an order like 'Climb to angels 10!" after already giving that order then you took too long to get to that altitude.

If you hear "Good!  Maintain this course, speed and altitude." then you know you are flying within the correct parameters and you shouldn't hear anything more from the FE unless you deviate or there is a new ordered instruction.

Glad you are finding the campaign useful and please continue to report any questions or issues and we will do our best to answer them.

Thanks.

 

[Beam-on]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:34 PM, Sabre-TLA said:

Likewise if the FE has to repeat an order like 'Climb to angels 10!" after already giving that order then you took too long to get to that altitude.

Thank you @Sabre-TLA.  I repeated the BFT08 mission again this evening.  I again received Q ratings on everything except navigation and maneuvers, for which I received a Q-minus.  (Yea, I'm still being a perfectionist!).

The flight was overall beautiful.  But, I do think I know where something is going wrong.  At the first waypoint after takeoff (meet at Angel 6, heading 300, 220 knots), right before the instruction to turn to heading 040, I get a quick "Maintain Angels 6!"  That sounds like what you were referring to above.  However, I was most certainly at Angels 6 and had been at Angels 6, 220kias since reaching it.  This does happen at that very point on every run of the mission -- at least for me.  I suspect this is the culprit.

Altimeter was 2992.  The trk file is attached and hopefully comes through OK.  

Thanks much!

BFT08_01_12_23.trk

[Sabre-TLA]

Thanks for your tenacity in investigating this issue.  I'll check the triggers and retest.  The trigger should be the same as other missions so not sure if you get the same warning in others or not.  We will investigate and correct it if we can.

[Sabre-TLA]

Good news - we found the bug and should have it fixed in the next patch update!