RIO Collision Steering

[AvroLanc]

I'm playing around with the Collision steering button in the RIO pit, but have no idea if it's working correctly ( I suspect not....). It's number 7 in the image below.

 

Can anyone confirm what it does? My take is that it provides azimuth collision heading for the currently tracked / STT target i.e. provides a collision course to the target. However in-game it doesn't do this. It just provides a wobbly steering T on the HUD that moves with the own A/C and actually points nowhere.

 

Am I using it right? What HUD mode, weapon selection etc should I be in to use correctly? Is it implemented? The HB manual is rather short on info for a lot of this.

[lucky-hendrix]

I am intrigued by this also. On my experience also the 'T' bug on pilot vdi/hud was just wobling around center of wing symbol

 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

[QuiGon]

I'm curious about this as well!

+1

[sgray]

From pg 200 of the Manual:

On the right side is the CLSN button (7) enabling collision steering to currently tracked target or centroid if in TWS. This selection overrides the current steering information presented to the pilot with the collision steering, only exception being if the pilot selects the ACM.

[lucky-hendrix]

Well thanks, but we know that ....

 

Have you tried ? The collision symbology in pilot hud seems bugged or difficult to interpret

 

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

[AvroLanc]

Still intrigued by this selection. Would be helpful to get some input from those in the know. I’ve worked out:

 

Default steering with an A2A weapon is LD PURST (lead pursuit). Seems self explanatory. You wznt the weapon to pull lead.

 

COLISION is supposed to provide intercept steering command I assume. Seems inop at the moment.

 

PURST (Pursuit) is selected when you have an STT target and ACM cover is flipped. Steers the nose onto the target direct ie. pure pursuit course. Is ACM Cover the only situation where this is commanded? Main tactical use?

 

LD COllSN ( lead collision) I have no idea, how do you select it and how is it different than lead pursuit.

[AvroLanc]

If anyone's still curious, I've had limited success with the COLLISION steering option. It does seem to actually command a true collision course with the STT target. The steering T is ultra sensitive and it requires a very fine touch to centre it up.

 

It also appears to only kick in when within a certain range, although I may need to confirm this.

[Spiceman]

If anyone's still curious, I've had limited success with the COLLISION steering option. It does seem to actually command a true collision course with the STT target. The steering T is ultra sensitive and it requires a very fine touch to centre it up.

 

It also appears to only kick in when within a certain range, although I may need to confirm this.

 

I'm sort of with you as well... it seems to be steering to more of a Lead Pursuit for a weapons launch rather than a collision course. I'll discuss it with HB.

[AvroLanc]

I'm sort of with you as well... it seems to be steering to more of a Lead Pursuit for a weapons launch rather than a collision course. I'll discuss it with HB.

 

It'll be great if you could bring it up.

 

I assumed it would command an intercept heading for a collision course from any range.

 

If I carefully follow the T then I do literally collide with the target, but it seems a bit odd. Not sure.

 

Do you know how to command LEAD COLLISION on the steering indicator?

 

Love your vids.

[Spiceman]

Do you know how to command LEAD COLLISION on the steering indicator?

 

Love your vids.

 

Thanks!

 

Selecting a missile activates Lead Pursuit. Without a weapon selected, you're in Pure Pursuit.

[AvroLanc]

Thanks!

 

Selecting a missile activates Lead Pursuit. Without a weapon selected, you're in Pure Pursuit.

 

Thanks but the steering indicator makes a distinction between and can indicate all 4 of the following:

 

LD PURST

or

PURST

or

LD COLLSION

or

COLLSION

 

My confusion is what's the difference between LD COLLSION and LD PURST?

 

I've generated pure pursuit i.e PURST on the indicator, by flipping the ACM cover. There's no other way I've found.

Edited March 29, 2019 by AvroLanc

[Spiceman]

Ah, I see...

 

My hazy memory is that LD CLSN is azimuth-only and CLSN is azimuth and elevation. To be honest I can't remember when you get which... well I do know that you should only get CLSN when the RIO has selected. Not sure when you get LD CLSN.

 

I didn't think the ACM guard played a role in when PURST (pure pursuit) was active, I thought is was only determined by STT and (non) weapons selection. I'll check it out.

[AvroLanc]

Thanks.

 

I get LD PURST with AA mode and weapon selected.

 

I get PURST with ACM cover flipped and SW or SP, but not PH. PH stays as LD PURST.

[Spiceman]

I get PURST with ACM cover flipped and SW or SP

 

That doesn't sound right to me. I do know that they have not implemented all of the steering modes yet, so it may just be an artifact of the incomplete implementation.

[AvroLanc]

That doesn't sound right to me. I do know that they have not implemented all of the steering modes yet, so it may just be an artifact of the incomplete implementation.

 

hmmm....maybe.

 

My initial thought was that a pure pursuit command might be of some use in an ACM situation. But I'm not skilled in the specifics of the tactics and maneuvers you might want in each case.

 

I guess it leads to the next question. If we know the what and how of each steering command, do we know why and when each mode would be useful tactically? How were they actually used?

 

Do aircrew really concern themselves with the actual detail, or in practice is it a case of 'put the thing on the thing' and pull the trigger?

[Spiceman]

I believe the steering info became important at certain points in an engagement. At really long range, I don't think the HUD steering tee was all that important. Once in visual range, it wasn't all that important. But I think at that mid range, where you can't visually see too well what the target is doing, but yet it's maneuvering will have big effects, is when the steering info became important. If you watch that Libyan shootdown video, at about 16 miles you hear the pilot saying he's "centering up the tee".

Edited March 29, 2019 by Spiceman

[AvroLanc]

I believe the steering info became important at certain points in an engagement. At really long range, I don't think the HUD steering tee was all that important. Once in visual range, it wasn't all that important. But I think at that mid range, where you can't visually see too well what the target is doing, but yet it's maneuvering will have big effects, is when the steering info became important. If you watch that Libyan shootdown video, at about 16 miles you hear the pilot saying he's "centering up the tee".

 

Yeah OK agree with that. I would guess that in that engagement the T was commanding Lead Pursuit for the missile, as it does for a Fox 1 shot, since they were preparing to engage.

 

I've been playing with the Collision Steering option and it does work, it's alot more obvious when up close to the target.

At long range it sort of commands a homing or chase command, rather than the pure one heading / most efficient intercept track I was expecting. Not sure if this is as intended.

 

Thanks for your input.

[AvroLanc]

Can I just bump this thread please.

 

Any update from devs as to whether 'Collision Steering' is going to be implemented?

 

It would help greatly with intercepts.

[Salty]

bump

[AvroLanc]

Bumping again.

 

One year on and I don’t think there’s ever been an explanation of whether Collision Steering is implemented. Or even what it’s exactly supposed to indicate.

 

Thanks.

[Tmi]

On 3/30/2020 at 2:36 PM, AvroLanc said:

Bumping again.

 

One year on and I don’t think there’s ever been an explanation of whether Collision Steering is implemented. Or even what it’s exactly supposed to indicate.

 

Thanks.

Another bump. I have been trying to find info on how these steering modes work, but no luck so far. 

[Victory205]

If I understand your question-

 

Basically, Collision uses own aircraft velocity to calculate an intercept course to the target. This is as opposed to assuming missile velocity to effect an efficient firing solution. Collision gives a steering course that takes the aircraft to the target, and as such, you don’t want to shoot a missile while the system is in collision- the missile would be tracking farther in front of the target than necessary, since it is much faster than the aircraft.

 

It was used to give the pilot an idea of where to fly to effect an intercept to the target, helping ensure that the fighter would arrive in a viable missile envelope with lots of options. It was also used to effect a rendezvous with a friendly tanker. In a tactical situation, the pilot would back up the RIO to ensure that a missile wasn’t shot in collision. IIRC, it was possible to do so. 

 

To see if it works in the sim, set up a high track crossing angle intercept. In collision, the steering T should suggest a course father ahead of a target’s velocity vector.

 

Pure Pursuit is more or less putting the fighter’s nose on the target and keeping it there. For any rear hemisphere intercept, it takes a significant speed advantage over the target to effect a rendezvous or to end up within a rear quarter IR missile or guns envelope. It ends up flying a curved flight path.

 

Lead Pursuit simply has the fighter keeping it’s nose in front of the target throughout the intercept, still flying the curve, but using a more aggressive curved flight path, in order to reduce the velocity advantage required to end up in a firing envelope. 

 

Collision calculates a straight course that would take the fighter to where the target will be, taking into account velocities of both aircraft.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Victory205

[Tmi]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:57 AM, Victory205 said:

If I understand your question-

 

Basically, Collision uses own aircraft velocity to calculate an intercept course to the target. This is as opposed to assuming missile velocity to effect an efficient firing solution. Collision gives a steering course that takes the aircraft to the target, and as such, you don’t want to shoot a missile while the system is in collision- the missile would be tracking farther in front of the target than necessary, since it is much faster than the aircraft.

 

It was used to give the pilot an idea of where to fly to effect an intercept to the target, helping ensure that the fighter would arrive in a viable missile envelope with lots of options. It was also used to effect a rendezvous with a friendly tanker. In a tactical situation, the pilot would back up the RIO to ensure that a missile wasn’t shot in collision. IIRC, it was possible to do so. 

 

To see if it works in the sim, set up a high track crossing angle intercept. In collision, the steering T should suggest a course father ahead of a target’s velocity vector.

 

Pure Pursuit is more or less putting the fighter’s nose on the target and keeping it there. For any rear hemisphere intercept, it takes a significant speed advantage over the target to effect a rendezvous or to end up within a rear quarter IR missile or guns envelope. It ends up flying a curved flight path.

 

Lead Pursuit simply has the fighter keeping it’s nose in front of the target throughout the intercept, still flying the curve, but using a more aggressive curved flight path, in order to reduce the velocity advantage required to end up in a firing envelope. 

 

Collision calculates a straight course that would take the fighter to where the target will be, taking into account velocities of both aircraft.

 

 

 

Ok, thank you for the information. After a super quick test, it seems that the CLSN button is implemented and it's working.

[Karon]

Just to add a quick note about collision, it means that, if co-altitude, you theoretically will end up impacting the other aircraft mid-air.
Collision has the advantage of maintaining the target aspect and, if you are co-speed, target aspect is equal to the antenna train angle (but opposite in sign), so the RIO can get it at a glance via the TID. In this scenario, collision bearing is also equal to Cut (Heading F-14 to Heading target) divided by 2. This makes calculating the lateral separation very simple, which then goes to influence displacement turn and counterturn.
Collision is also easy to recognize from the DDD because there is no intercept drift (so the target's indicator does not move anywhere but towards the bottom of the b-scope - in Pulse) and on the TID in Aircraft Stabilized mode because the target's vector points towards the F-14.

Collision is definitely a good way to improve the odds of the missile hitting something when the alternative is Pure pursuit and TA > Hot. On the other hand, for a Sparrow attack for example, better use the Lead Collision: you can use the dot in the ASE to determine that but approximating it to TA / 2, it kind of works usually.

 

Since I'm here, hats off to Victory, I'm in awe every time he writes

[AvroLanc]

Thanks Victory for clarifying how Collision Steering should work. 

 

However, it still doesn't work in the sim. Sorry but it's almost 2 years on....

 

Currently when you select Collision in the RIO's pit, all it does is light up the button, and change the steering rotary to CLSN....

 

The steering command to the pilot in the HUD and VDI is non-nonsensical. All you get is a steering T that clamps itself to the centre position and 'wobbles' a bit when you maneuver before returning to centre. It provides no steering command AT ALL.

 

Sorry, but it's been 2 years, and no comment on this by a HB dev member?