Question on F-15 radar

[tmdgm]

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to figure this thing out. Actually 2 questions:

 

1) In and F-15, Is it better to fly low or high? It seems like when I fly low, the range of my missiles is less, but if I fly high, my missiles seem to miss more often (this assumes targets on the deck). Or close to the deck. I understand the ground clutter thing, but wasn't sure what others do. If I know the bandits are on the deck, I go as low as possible and survive. If I go high, missiles seem to miss more often, I get too close and I die. The stock scramble mission where you are against Su-34's is a great example.

 

2) Does the radar strength or cone (can't think of the word) reduce against targets close to the ground when you go from 20 to 40, 80 etc?

 

I ask because I was flying an addon mission and I was trying with icons off. I had the radar at 40 and 80 nm, with the radar altitude adjuster always kept the bottom range at 0 because I was worried about low level strike aircraft. This is on the head's down display on the left. Adjusts with SHIFT+. and SHIFT+;

 

There was alot of jamming contacts with RWR showing Mig's straight ahead but still a way's out.

 

Welp, next thing I knew, wingmen break and announce missile launch. Oh cra...boom. Played it again same way at 40 or 80 on the radar but turned icons on. There were 2 SU-25T's on the deck in front of the migs, which is what got me last time. But still nothing on the radar other than the ecm jammings. I was also low, but not on the deck. I turned icons on too late and two R-73's toasted me. I should've been close enough to burn through the Su-25t's ecm at this point, but nothing on the radar.

 

So again played, but couldn't figure out why radar didn't pick it up. I tried toggling down to 20 nm and narrowed the altitude range on the left of the HDD (but always was bottomed at 0). And voila, they showed up at ~10-15 nm and I was able to lock and avoid any R-73's coming my way.

 

I ended up dying later, which is typical, but it seemed the only way to detect them on radar was to go to 20 on the range.

[Pilotasso]

Your not mistaken, missiles miss more often when flying high, but have less range when fired from below. You trade off tactical position for PK. or vice versa. It realy depends on the situation to decide wich is better. oh and radar operation skill as well. Its required when theres a high altitude displacement between you and the target, so practice keeping targets within the radars illumination cone. Its essential.

[tmdgm]

Its required when theres a high altitude displacement between you and the target, so practice keeping targets within the radars illumination cone. Its essential.

 

Just to check, keeping the target within the illumination cone is basically keeping it within the 60 degree cone? You're not referring to doing anything specific with the radar controls? Narrowing gimbal limits/range etc? I usually just try to keep the gimbal limits as wide open as possible.

[S77th-GOYA]

I had the radar at 40 and 80 nm, with the radar altitude adjuster always kept the bottom range at 0 because I was worried about low level strike aircraft.

 

Remember that seeing the scan cone has a lower altitude of 0 feet means that at the FULL RANGE of the scan, the cone is at zero. Depending on your altitude, there can be a LOT of unscanned space under your cone closer to you than that full range. For example, fly at angels 20 and set your scan range to 80. Adjust to put the bottom of the scan cone at 0 feet and then switch to a scan range of 20. See where your bottom of the scan cone is now? Now adjust it to 0 feet at the 20 scan range. Switch back to 80 and see where your bottom of the scan cone is.

[TekaTeka]

Maximum and minimum scan altitude are the values at range of TDC cursor. So, you have to move TDC cursor at range you want see and adjust the scan elevation. You only see aircrafts in the scan zone (as contacts or jamming strobes).

[Pilotasso]

Just to check, keeping the target within the illumination cone is basically keeping it within the 60 degree cone? You're not referring to doing anything specific with the radar controls? Narrowing gimbal limits/range etc? I usually just try to keep the gimbal limits as wide open as possible.

 

If you know where the target is and theres no one else, then reduce azimuth for faster scaning. I was speaking about vertical antenna aiming. And what teka teka said. :)

[tmdgm]

Maximum and minimum scan altitude are the values at range of TDC cursor. So, you have to move TDC cursor at range you want see and adjust the scan elevation. You only see aircrafts in the scan zone (as contacts or jamming strobes).

 

Oh, ok. I get it. I wasn't aware the scan altitude was at the point of the TDC cursor. I must have missed that in that manual. That was a really good drawing TekaTeka. I was keeping my TD cursor way up at the top of the HDD. With it being that far out at 80, or even 40, a low scan altitude of 0 is still a fairly narrow cone and could easily miss planes low on the deck. I probably saw them as a jamming strobe, but when they got close enough to burn through, they were outside (or below) of my cone.

 

That really helped. Thanks again.

 

Another question, does reducing the azimuth (that's the vertical scan right?) to a narrow band help you maintain radar lock better when he is maneuvering and dumping countermeasures? I'm sure it will help you detect better. It would be when I'm firing a sparrow. I think I asked this before and the answer was no, the narrow range won't help you maintain lock any better than the wider azimuth. Although, once you're locked, does the vertical azimuth matter? Hmm. I need to jump in the cockpit again.

[S77th-GOYA]

:doh: Of course, Teka is right. I don't know what I was thinking.

[GGTharos]

The answer is no. It helps you find a target again faster though if he remains within that particular volume of space.

During a TWS bug (WHICH IS NOT A LOCK) azimuth and elevation matter. During STT tracking (aka a lock) they do not, because the antenna is slaved to point right at that target (which is why you can't detect any other targets at that time)

[tmdgm]

During a TWS bug (WHICH IS NOT A LOCK) azimuth and elevation matter. During STT tracking (aka a lock) they do not, because the antenna is slaved to point right at that target (which is why you can't detect any other targets at that time)

 

Ok, could you elaborate a little on the during a tws bug? What bug? TWS is initially not a lock, but then you lock on to multiple targets, well sort of because locking in tws doesn't give a launch indication... right?

 

So if I'm in TWS, whether I lock or not, I should be trying to adjust azimuth? Especially if I'm firing sparrows, or even amraams until time to active TAA?

[Aeroscout]

In TWS, you bug multiple targets. You can "lock" one by pressing TAB on one twice.(Bugging them, then locking them) The reason they are not "Locked" when you push TAB once (In TWS) is because the radar is tracking them, but not "following" them so to speak, because it needs to continue to search for targets. As a result, you must continue to keep adjusting the radar so that the target stays in the cone. (Or you lose lock) When you "Lock" a target, the radar tracks and follows the target. you no longer have to adjust the radar elevation and such, but you cannot track multiple targets because the radar is focused on one target.

[GGTharos]

Ok, could you elaborate a little on the during a tws bug? What bug? TWS is initially not a lock, but then you lock on to multiple targets, well sort of because locking in tws doesn't give a launch indication... right?

 

 

Right, you only get a warning once the missile goes active. A lock means you point that big radar dish at the target and KEEP IT pointed there, blasting all radar energy you got at it. That is STT mode.

TWS 'bug' is not a real lock - it is a software mode which says 'show me the details of this target, and if a missile is launched, datalink its position to the missile' ... but the radar continues searching (it might do a couple other things to speed up target updates, but that's irrelevant for now)

 

So if I'm in TWS, whether I lock or not, I should be trying to adjust azimuth? Especially if I'm firing sparrows, or even amraams until time to active TAA?

 

 

No firing sparrows from TWS. You can't do it. Sparrows require STT.

And yes, you should be adjusting azimuth and elevation in TWS ... you don't need to do so in the real thing - sadly that's not modeled in LOMAC.

[leafer]

Peeps, this is exactly why I only drop bombs and fire rockets at NON moving targets -- dirt.

 

Urg... God help me if one of these days ED gives us a Flanker with AFM and some serious avionics, then I'll have to learn how to fly and fight in that awesome bird. Shivering...

[GGTharos]

... only to get bushwhacked by an F-15 ;)

[leafer]

I'll time my ejection so I hit right under your cockpit which in turn ejecting you, and putting me inside a nice, user friendly American cockpit. With cool Russian joy stick. Bah! :D

[GGTharos]

You'll make all the aerobatic squads jealous! :D

[Pilotasso]

Ok, could you elaborate a little on the during a tws bug? What bug? TWS is initially not a lock, but then you lock on to multiple targets, well sort of because locking in tws doesn't give a launch indication... right?

 

So if I'm in TWS, whether I lock or not, I should be trying to adjust azimuth? Especially if I'm firing sparrows, or even amraams until time to active TAA?

 

bug=designation. Once in TWS alows you to fire ARAMM's while keeping an eye for more aircraft, or/and fire at them silmultaneously. doing it twice swiches the antena to target slave, it gives him a warning but its the only way to fire a Sparrow, or for the guns. Despite giving off your position, its also usefull to prevent the target from runing under your radar when you get closer to him with TWS on and when its increasingly more demanding to keep him on the scope that way. Usualy I swich to STT when I get to 10 miles.

[tmdgm]

And yes, you should be adjusting azimuth and elevation in TWS ... you don't need to do so in the real thing - sadly that's not modeled in LOMAC.

 

Thanks for your help. One last question is adjusting azimuth in TWS. Isn't the default azimuth the widest scan you can have?. So unless you want faster updates, just keep it default? If I do decide to narrow the azimuth, then I definitely have to adjust in TWS. But if I never narrow it, shouldn't have to adjust in TWS unless I want faster updates. Where's that manual again.

 

Thanks again.

[Geier]

Read this thread http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=20549 ;)

[GGTharos]

Quite right. Faster updates tend to help with ECM blinking or otherwise dropped contacts, but it requires that you keep tabs on where the radar's pointed, as you said.

 

Thanks for your help. One last question is adjusting azimuth in TWS. Isn't the default azimuth the widest scan you can have?. So unless you want faster updates, just keep it default? If I do decide to narrow the azimuth, then I definitely have to adjust in TWS. But if I never narrow it, shouldn't have to adjust in TWS unless I want faster updates. Where's that manual again.

 

Thanks again.

[tmdgm]

Quite right. Faster updates tend to help with ECM blinking or otherwise dropped contacts, but it requires that you keep tabs on where the radar's pointed, as you said.

 

Does the AI do ECM blinking? I'm thinking against AI just keep it default at wide view.

[GGTharos]

Fight against real people. The AI, dumb as it is, does things quite perfectly. :) Very annoying!

And, it does not use ECM blinking.

[tmdgm]

Yes, too perfect. And very annoying. I die 70%.

 

I know there are tons of topics about ecm blinking, but a quick summary, what is it? I'm assuming you turn off and on ecm to break lock?

[RvEYoda]

The AI is extremely easy to "read". Once you see how he behaves generally, you can put him in a fully defensive position every single time.

 

Lockon maxed AI will:

fire at you when in range, will fire another missile as soon as he detects the first one is no longer tracking (This is instant for the maxed out AI)

he will dodge ONE missile at a time, pop 1-2 chaff per 5-10 seconds, and then reengage once he senses the missile you fired at him lost him

 

Normally the maxed out su27 ai for me dodges around 2-4 amraams look-down, even within Rtr.

 

The key is : The lockon AI will not reengage if a missile is tracking him.

 

Fire salvos of 2 or more missiles, and don't be afraid of using your entire payload. Better come home empty than not coming home at all.

[tmdgm]

Fire salvos of 2 or more missiles, and don't be afraid of using your entire payload. Better come home empty than not coming home at all.

 

Even sparrows? I do this for amraams and sidewinders if I have enough, but sparrows seems to be a waste to fire more than 1 since it relies on my radar. Once that lock on box starts flashing, then disappears, you can have 10 sparrows headed there, they will all miss. I think? I can have the nose pointed right at him and his countermeasures and maneuvering will lose lock.