Index versus Rift-S... Updated opinions wanted

[Madmatt_BFC]

When the Rift-S and Index came out there were a lot of comparisons between the two headsets and there were some issues that really seemed to penalize the Rift-S.

 

However, now that most of those launch issues on the Rift-S such as white flashes and substandard tracking have been resolved with firmware and software updates I am curious if anyone has given them both a fair shake within DCS.

 

I see plenty of Index vs. Reverb and Index vs. Odyssey + comparisons posted here but I am only interested in how the Rift S (with fixes) stands up to the Index in DCS.

 

Also, I know that audio is another big pain point with the Rift S but for me that's no longer an issue as I added a set of Koss speakers to a headband mount I custom made. Now my Rift-S audio is as good or even better than it was with my CV-1 Rift. So for the sake of this question, its a non-issue for me.

 

So any that have been able to test with both HMD's since all of the early issues with the S got sorted out, what are your opinions?

 

Thanks in advance!

[DeltaMike]

The beauty of the Rift S is, it's OK enough. I can see well enough through it and I can play DCS well enough with my el cheapo GPU. And yeah the tracking is good enough, it does some weird stuff sometimes but I'm assuming that'll get ironed out eventually. And it's inexpensive enough.

 

Thing is, you don't have to settle for "OK enough" with your rig

[Stal2k]

I have the Rift S and have been testing the Index at a nearby lab over the last several months on DCS. As things stand in late August, I still slightly prefer the Rift S over the Index. I mark this down to just better software tuning as done by Oculus vs what is offered through SteamVR. I fight online competitively and there is just a little bit less ghosting and slightly smoother motion in the Rift S when an enemy moves past me versus the Index. I also think that the Oculus API is slightly preferable as regards the edges of trees and buildings. The difference is very small but using my Rift S in DCS with a Pixel Density of 2.0 provides me more building clarity, smoother combat action and better clarity of the instrument panel lettering than the Index does with Steam VR at 150 to 204%, DCS Pixel Density set to 1.0 and with both these headsets riding on one 2080 Ti card. YMMV ...

 

I have both headsets as well. I agree with all the pro's Aurelius lists in terms of the Rift software advantage, it is real lol. To his point, your system specs determine greatly what type of experience you are going to get.

 

At first, I was really disappointed with the index, I didn't get the comfort people really seemed to boast, the FOV was better sure but all in all it wasn't like it just blew the Rift out of the water. Coming from a CV1 I had grown quite accustomed to the software advantage Rift offers (ASW/Dashboard, shit actually working etc). Something strange happened though, when I forced myself to use the index for a week because of return period, I really found it hard to go back to the Rift, DCS included.

 

The takeaways are this, unless you have both you won't really miss much in terms of DCS, on anything less than a top tier system you are probably going to have a better time with the Rift S. On top end hardware, the Index is a better HMD (cost aside) and you can enjoy mostly all of the Rift exclusives with Revive. After all the "fixes" I will say the only thing that really annoys me still is the audio, but you said it's a non-issue. The tracking is really impressive with the Rift S if I'm being honest.

 

In terms of mileage from the Index, even with top end hardware (I suspect this is true in more than just DCS) you need to tweak, tune, test and repeat. DCS just isn't hitting 80-90 FPS consistent as it sits today on top end hardware. That being said, it's important to note that the Rift S is a 80hz (80fps) max vs the index which has options 80-144. Since you are going to be sitting at 1/2 your max FPS (or less) pretty much always the index will "scale" bettter with newer hardware, if it's still around when that happens :) Yes, that could be a 5fps difference (40 vs 45) or a more substantial one (40 vs 60). I'll admit I'm still liking the 90hz vs the 120hz for DCS but I'm nowhere near done tweaking. I'm pretty confident through overclock tuning and maybe some settings/SS I can get a stable 60fps (1/2 of 120).

[TacoGrease]

I purchased both Rift S and Index for a side by side comparison. I returned the Index and have kept the Rift S.

 

The Index was only marginally better than Rift S - certainly not anywhere near enough to justify the price difference.

 

And Valve’s support has been an absolute nightmare - that was the tipping point for me. A $3B company has zero excuse.

[jojo]

I only have the Rift S, not the Index.

No issue at all so far. For the price it’s really good and better experience than CV1.

 

Based on specs and FoV test in virtual labs on YouTube, the Index has slightly better FoV and resolution. But doing the math, the PPD count (Pixel Per Degree) is about the same on both (give or take 1 pixel per degree depending on FoV measured, which depends on each people headset position tweaking).

 

So it’s down to each one to assess if they need the adjustable IPD (I don’t since I am at 64mm), if they need the extra cool audio solution (personal preference) or the expensive controller (might be cool for some other games than DCS).

 

We have the choice, what is best depends on your personal preferences/ need and hardware capacity.

[sk000tch]

The beauty of the Rift S is, it's OK enough. I can see well enough through it and I can play DCS well enough with my el cheapo GPU. And yeah the tracking is good enough, it does some weird stuff sometimes but I'm assuming that'll get ironed out eventually. And it's inexpensive enough.

 

Thing is, you don't have to settle for "OK enough" with your rig

 

I agree with this completely. I bought a rift S while I waited on Index to ship and thought it was a downgrade for flight sims from modded O+, and was furious with FB for pulling a 180 on direction of the company

 

I have the Rift S and have been testing the Index at a nearby lab over the last several months on DCS. As things stand in late August, I still slightly prefer the Rift S over the Index. I mark this down to just better software tuning as done by Oculus vs what is offered through SteamVR. I fight online competitively and there is just a little bit less ghosting and slightly smoother motion in the Rift S when an enemy moves past me versus the Index. I also think that the Oculus API is slightly preferable as regards the edges of trees and buildings. The difference is very small but using my Rift S in DCS with a Pixel Density of 2.0 provides me more building clarity, smoother combat action and better clarity of the instrument panel lettering than the Index does with Steam VR at 150 to 204%, DCS Pixel Density set to 1.0 and with both these headsets riding on one 2080 Ti card. YMMV ...

 

I completely disagree with this, i've had all three, and vastly prefer the index. But you shouldn't listen to me, or anyone else, if you can help it.

 

Here's the thing... VR is completely subjective. Specifications provide some insight into what you're getting, but if you can, you've really got to find someone and try it out. I have a borrowed reverb here right now along with my index, and prefer the index by a significant margin. I could go on about why, but it doesnt' really matter (check post history if curious). I frankly have no idea how Aurelius could have his opinion but he does, I used to think people that liked rift S didn't have the $ or the GPU to run a reverb/index, but as i've seen more and more opinions that echo similar thoughts, from people with good hardware, that's clearly not the case.

 

Other people i'm sure will warn you about ipd, build quality, walled gardens and the rest, as a 2,000hr pilot who competes and teaches aerobatics I'm a huge fan of peripheral vision, constantly pounding students to keep their head up outside the cockpit and not fixate on instruments (or reverb's little sweet spot). I don't even know what to say about rift S. Tiny FOV, poor resolution, less hz, feels like a kids' toy... I was pissed. I kickstarted and wanted half dome, ended up with something that feels like those cheap plastic deals you put your phone in, but friggin jokes on me b/c Aurelius and greasy taco are stoked for $600 less.

 

Maybe best example is support. Reddit has story after story of "Unbelievable customer support," Valve going way above and beyond, but taco guy obviously had a very different experience. I mean, Valve vs. facebook is an easy call for me but others very clearly feel differently.

 

I don't know what is is, different IPDs,different settings, different head shapes, different intra cranial corneal synapse latency...on paper it doesn't make sense at all, reviews say the same thing, but there's ample anecdotal evidence of people with completely valid contrary opinions (there's plenty of ridiculous as well, e.g. complaining about the 30 seconds it takes to set up LH vs the significant tracking difference). At the end of the day, the only reasonable conclusion is that you really need to try before you buy if its at all possible. Ask your friends, post on FB, offer $20 on craigslist or something. You're welcome to try mine, i'll even throw in an acro lesson. But for god sakes, don't' spend a grand based on a forum recommendation.

[metalnwood]

Passing product design courses is all well and good but I am not sure it is what we should aspire to all of the time.

 

 

They are different products and it's been stated that they are not aimed at the same audience. Oculus is going for mass market so they are putting more time and effort in to the overall experience but valve are not coming from the same angle.

 

 

I have had all of the Oculus headsets including the S and I am glad that Valve have gone the way they have. For me it's simply a case that I don't meet that mass market demographic which also takes in to account your 'average person', something that no doubt it also taught in product design.

 

 

Where Oculus have gone cheap and had to cater for your average person (I am talking about IPD), valve is delivering a headset that I can actually use and more money spent is a wiser investment than looking through a headset with your brain constantly telling you that something is wrong.

 

 

As skoootch says, it's not the same for everyone and someone has to be the one pushing the boundaries or we would not progress. Imagine the innovation lost to the world if everything had to be delivered in a fashion that a 75 year old woman could understand.

 

 

The future product that everyone can use, features ironed out, needs other companies to push.

[metalnwood]

I never said progressive forward thinking products that push the boundaries should not be a goal. Please don't equate my Grandmother Principle with only average mass consumption user base. It is a complexity standard, not a fashion or technology one. It is just that products should be engineered to be prime time ready upon launch. The Index is not prime time ready at launch.

 

 

Does it have to be though? There are plenty of people buying it knowing it's not as smooth as oculus, knowing it might be more of a PITA working with steamVR than oculus.

 

 

It's a choice that lots of us make knowing the trade off in some areas for the gains in other. I wouldnt want to wait another 6 months for them to iron out some software issues when I could be using the hardware now. A couple hours figuring out some settings has never been a big barrier for people that want what they want now and can't find it somewhere else.

 

 

Just saying, what might be an inconvenience for some people is not a barrier for others. You can have the S. I think it's a good headset that unfortunately doesnt fit me but I don't think I shouldnt have the index because you think they should have held it back for what others may think are rather trivial issues

[sk000tch]

Aurelius I was merely observing the wide variety of opinions, and suggesting OP consider that variance when reading people's (often oddly passionate and biased) opinions.

 

Ironically I am an engineer as well. Well technically at least, I’ve never actually worked as an one, much less been a professor such as yourself, but my undergad was Aero/Astro E. (I like planes ;) ). While I’m not a practicing engineer, I’ve run companies with lots of them, and your requirement that "30 or so average intelligent grandmothers (IQ 95 to 105) who are 60 to 75 years and who don't have dementia... must be able to read, set up and understand in 30 minutes" rule of yours sounds like advice I’d give to a junior college technical writing class, it is absolutely the last thing I would ever say to a development team tasked with innovating new and emerging technologies like VR.

 

I gave you the benefit of the doubt before to illustrate the subjective quality of VR experiences, to suggest OP make up his own mind. Increasingly, however, you seem biased. You seem to show up wherever rift s is discussed, making the same strawman argument. Valve was transparent that Index was not a mass market device. They made no apologies for the price, and built the best device they could (within reason). Whether you like the Index or not you should be glad they did. When Iribe left FB stating he wasn't interested in a race to to the bottom, with HTC lost in the fog and MS still herding cats, it looked like VR was destined to stagnate. Even if I didn't own an Index I'd be glad that at least one company is driving innovation and fostering an open platform.

 

Your "it just works" argument is nonsense, this isn't about iPhones. Rift S doesn't just work if I put my hands at my side. It doesn't work if next time I want to buy a WMR device but can't play my games. It doesn't work if I'm a developer and I don't want to co-develop for Quest. More importantly, you can't lose a race you aren't running. That wasn't valve's design criteria. RoadToVR summed it up nicely:, "The Valve Index headset is more expensive and less user-friendly than its nearest competitor, the Oculus Rift S, but the experience it offers is the clear choice for VR enthusiasts..."

 

Most grandmothers with IQs 95 to 105 who are 60 to 75 years and who don't have dementia aren't VR enthusiast. I'm sure there are exceptions, but fair to say they are targeting a different market. Speaking of iphones though, last week my dad hit the emergency function on his iphone and I got alerts all day long every day he moved 20 ft updating his position. I called him repeatedly but he didn't answer. The phone works fine, but he's retired and the kids don't call enough, so he's not used to it ringing so always leaving it in the car, muted, etc. Grandpa is in the late majority. He doesn't see any value in upgrading his iPhone 8, his wifi network name is Xfinity11454, and while he thinks its pretty cool when I showed him, he sure as heck isn't buying a HMD. If he does it will be a black friday $99 WMR to disappoint one of my spoiled kids. And, for what its worth, he's had that iphone 8 for like 6-years and still doesn't understand it. So much for the grandma rule...

 

Evaluating Index against that same criteria is asinine. If you are going to be biased, at least formulate something more persuasive than the grandma test.

 

Fortunately, despite being around product development, aerospace, and other technology my whole life I have never heard of your "grandma rule." For that I am glad, as I can't imagine how different the world would be. I wouldn’t have a custom loop 9900k stable at 5.3 or a 2080ti that I had to disassemble, with no real directions, to install a HC block. I wouldn’t have a hotas that requires removing cams, changing springs and adjusting damping. I wouldn't have modified it to my preference or built botton boxes to provide additional tactile controls for VR. I wouldn’t have a beta access or any early access modules for that matter, as they certainly don't "just work." And that's just DCS... in RL I wouldn't even know where to begin, but I probably wouldn’t have pants without elastic or shoes without velcro, much less a plane certified to +/-12G.

 

Even more fundamentally your premise is based that Oculus "just works" and Steam does not fails. It's almost as if we have never seen a closed ecosystem before, where a dominant company with disparate resources invests capital to develop proprietary titles to strengthen network effects, locking in customers and stifling innovation. It's almost like FB didn't acquire Oculus to compete apples to apples in an open market.

 

VR is subjective, on that we agree. Your opinion that Rift s' single 1440p 80z panel, small FOV, lack of IPD adjustment is superior to canted dual displays at 1600p, 144hz, superior build quality, tracking, audio, controllers is not consistent with mine, nor the myriad reviews proclaiming Index as "Next Level VR," "The Enthusiasts Choice," "The New Bar for VR Headsets," or "the DLSR to the Oculus Rift S Point and Shoot," But, I have seen enough people express that hey are happy with their Rifts that I encourage everyone who asks to try the devices and see what they like, just as I urged OP to conduct his own analysis. That saida, every time I've ever demo'd Index to someone, their opinion was

.

 

I do it because despite the proliferation of DSLRs and camera phones, there is still a market for point and shoot cameras. Not because they take better pictures... but rather, as you say, so that "average intelligent grandmothers (IQ 95 to 105) who are 60 to 75 years and who don't have dementia" don't go around sending emergency alerts all day.

[sk000tch]

On another note, I own a 2016 Honda Accord sedan and my friend owns a BMW M5 that costs almost three times as much. We have driven each other's cars multiple times. He swears his car gives an experience that is three times better or even more so, than the 'ride' my car provides despite my car having about 98% of the same gadgets and features as the M5. Perhaps he is right :)

 

You posted this while I was responding, but you've argued the point more effectively than I ever could. Funny how a single comment can clear the fog of war, and shed so much light on the otherwise obscured personality on the opposite side of an internet argument.

 

Whereas most here would suggest a test drive, see what OP prefers. You passionately argue, mostly by fallacy, that the Accord is better on an absolute (not value relative) basis in all but the smallest of circumstances.

 

My question is why? Every single post you've made (slight exaggeration) in the last several months is rift s/index stuff. Do you fly too or just go door to door spreading the rift gospel?

[Wali763]

Sorry to interrupt your (very interesting) discussion.

 

Ill send back the Rift S in maybe 10 Minutes.

 

I did not like the shimmering, and the limited view into distance, eg no being able to see the orientation of the carrier 3 miles out. Also the sea looked much worse, especially sundowns...

 

I did also not like the limited FOV, but during flying it actually was not a problem, so something to get used to.

 

Question: would going for the Index alleviate some of my problems with the Rift S?? Would the Index absolutly require a 2080Ti or could someting more cheaper also do fine?

 

I personally think, that its more of a personal problem with VR, since my expactiations were a bit too high.

 

Thx

[jojo]

Sorry to interrupt your (very interesting) discussion.

 

Ill send back the Rift S in maybe 10 Minutes.

 

I did not like the shimmering, and the limited view into distance, eg no being able to see the orientation of the carrier 3 miles out. Also the sea looked much worse, especially sundowns...

 

I did also not like the limited FOV, but during flying it actually was not a problem, so something to get used to.

 

Question: would going for the Index alleviate some of my problems with the Rift S?? Would the Index absolutly require a 2080Ti or could someting more cheaper also do fine?

 

I personally think, that its more of a personal problem with VR, since my expactiations were a bit too high.

 

Thx

 

Did you try to add super sampling with DebugTool ?

[metalnwood]

The rift might be better value to the majority, I don't know but to keep up the line that it is the absolute best is just not true.

 

 

It doesnt work for myself and many others. It has limitations, for myself my ipd is too wide so that I am outside of the sweetspot. I have been in VR for years and am not prepared to give it up which means that 3x the price of the rift S is the right price for me to have a headset that works.

 

 

For some people it's the right price for the marginal better fov. For some people its the right price for a better refresh rate (which I dont notice in DCS but I do notice in racing). For some people.... The list can go on..

 

 

For everything you start to get diminishing returns for a greater price and it's up to each person to determine that.

 

 

 

Most of the time I buy value for money, sometimes I dont. In the case of the index I buy it because it works better for me.. I dont see the issue.

[Wali763]

Did you try to add super sampling with DebugTool ?

 

I did not try that since I did not know about that. But I turned up PD quite high (1,7 or 1,8 ) which is kind of the same in my understanding. Fps went down though way too much with my current setup. But I planned to upgrade to a 2080 at least anyway.

 

Other than that, I will consider the Index since my IPD is on the higher side of normal (67).

 

Since I do not need the controllers, it could be a bit cheaper, or better less expensive.

 

Thx for your input.

[jojo]

I did not try that since I did not know about that. But I turned up PD quite high (1,7 or 1,8 ) which is kind of the same in my understanding. Fps went down though way too much with my current setup. But I planned to upgrade to a 2080 at least anyway.

 

Other than that, I will consider the Index since my IPD is on the higher side of normal (67).

 

Since I do not need the controllers, it could be a bit cheaper, or better less expensive.

 

Thx for your input.

 

I didn't fact proof, but Debugtool SS is said to be less greedy.

From my experience above 1.5 not much visual improvement.

 

At 1.5 and MSAA x2 I'm pretty happy.

 

Landscape is good enough, cockpit depends on the module.

But my beloved Mirage is cockpit is usable mostly without zoom.

I can spot fighters in the air from 6 to 7 Nm head on.

[sk000tch]

Curiously Skoootch, when you get a moment, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how you determine value relative worth? (no, ... I am not being sarcastic or a smart-ass. I am just curious.)

 

Last thing I want is to revive this, but i'm not sure what you're referring to. I said relative value (as opposed to absolute), which in this case means viewing the attractiveness of an asset by comparing to similar assets. In this specific case, the absolute vs. relative distinction however was based on value in the sense of an asset that provides a lot of utility for the cost. As I said, I understand when someone has the opinion that Index doesn't not provide enough additional utility for the additional cost, that's their personal value judgment. Where we went astray was your repeated statements that on an absolute basis (disregarding any value calculation), that Rift S was better. E.g., that if the M5 and Honda were the same price, the Honda was superior.

 

I would never disparage someone's value judgment, we all have different resources, responsibilities and preferences. I'm not a (street) car guy, so I would not agree with your friend's choice. But god damn I have some vices of my own. It started with Warbirds, a simple Stearman, business was good so then it was a T-6, then a P-40, then a bunch of TF-51 time to trying to earn a type rating for P-51. I love taildraggers with big radials, so much so that I eventually bought one. A few years later I met a guy, he liked Russian planes too... so we made a little trade. That was my first exposure to the Albatros, and a month later I flew down to spend a week earning my type cert. Jesus, the gas alone... but what a blast. That buzz wore off though, so then what? Mig-15? meh... F-4? Too rich for my blood. Currently considering the F-104, but you can't earn a rating and your on a tight leash... but it's an F-104. I'm also drooling over a 330SC and getting serious about unlimited comp, but I don't really want to give up the 2nd seat. Kids are definitely against that choice, they want a bigger wakeboard boat that will wakesurf. Really need a new dock though, mine's a little long in the tooth. My point isn't to tell my life story here, people can choose to do what they want with their time and money so long as they aren't hurting anyone else. A lot of people (my ex-wife included) would view the amount of money I've spent on aviation adventures as absurd, but it's one of the things I like. Your buddy likes BMWs. It's not really anyone's business how someone else chooses to spend their resources.

 

Yet that really seems to be the poorly hidden thrux of your argument. Yesterday went from making a list proclaim rift S as "the best headset," then this thread that started w/ the same, and has slowly backtracked into "only slightly better," and variations on "not better enough to justify the cost." Those are value judgments, and while you might like BMWs about as much as my ex-wife likes warbirds, it's not really your call.

 

"I tried both side by side, and to me the improved visual clarity/uniformity of clarity/refresh rate/tracking quality/FOV/Controllers/audio/comfort weren't worth the $600" would be a fair statement. But instead we get grandma rules, and unsubstantiated statistics of how nobody puts on an index and is like OMG this is so much better than rift. Which is really weird, because that's what I did, and what most people seem to do. I linked to several similar statements and video in my previous post.

 

Another fair argument is that DCS levels the playing field a bit for certain hardware scenarios, but that proper tuning usually addresses that. I suppose your "it just works" is sorta the redneck nephew of that argument, it does take a little more learning and knowledge to get the most out of Index, such is the cost of options and customizability. VKB is more difficult to setup than a warthog, etc. You were also correct in that steam doesn't come with a manual, lots of users have no idea what advanced settings or fpsVR are. And those are 3rd party, couple days ago one guy was complaining about LH noise when he was working. Learning about 1 checkbox in settings turned him from "I'm returning this POS" to OMG THANKS BEST EVER. There are a lot of users with setup issues for sure, especially in DCS.

 

Anyway, I should have left your question alone. I really didn't want to rekindle this, but didn't want to leave it hanging. I'm going to go burn some avgas and come back, pay my penance by helping people get their settings right.

 

Have fun w/ the rest of your crusade