F-15C avionics wishlist

[Trident]

Just to give me a clear picture of the situation:

 

- What percentage of the F-15C fleet was fitted with JTIDS or FDL in the 1989 - 1994 timeframe? The fly-able aircraft, and that's what counts here, seem to be pretty consistently modelled in accordance with this setting (let's forget about the mysteries of the AI aircraft, they obviously do not follow a consistent scheme in this regard).

 

- Was there ever a C-model Eagle WITH the CRT armament-control display but WITHOUT any form of data-link? The MSIP-upgrade was, as the acronym implies, a multi-stage effort so it seems conceivable that the display (minus some fuctionality) was introduced seperately from and earlier than the data-link.

 

- When were the A/G-modes removed from the APG-70 through software changes?

 

What I'm getting at is this: Is it representative of the 'average' F-15C in USAF service during above mentioned timeframe to portray it as having JTIDS/FDL in LOMAC? IMHO it would give the US side an unrealistic 'advantage' (for lack of a better word, I really mean 'a capability that should not be there') if only a small fraction of all Eagles boasted of such a system back then (compared to the Su-27, where the data-link was standard equipment on every aircraft from day one, AFAIK).

 

IMHO it would be acceptable to model a fairly exotic configuration (or even a hybrid) for the F-15 that was rare in actual service but gives a fairly accurate picture of the systems and capabilities found in the fleet as a whole (again, during the years mentioned).

 

Anyone? :)

[Olgerd]

 

- What percentage of the F-15C fleet was fitted with JTIDS or FDL in the 1989 - 1994 timeframe? The fly-able aircraft, and that's what counts here, seem to be pretty consistently modelled in accordance with this setting (let's forget about the mysteries of the AI aircraft, they obviously do not follow a consistent scheme in this regard).

 

Only 18 F-15C was (and still) at Alyaska upgraded by MSIP stage 2 as I understand.

[Olgerd]

- Was there ever a C-model Eagle WITH the CRT armament-control display but WITHOUT any form of data-link? The MSIP-upgrade was, as the acronym implies, a multi-stage effort so it seems conceivable that the display (minus some fuctionality) was introduced seperately from and earlier than the data-link.

 

There are all another Eagles not mentioned in the previous post - F-15C/D upgraded by MSIP stage 1 and original F-15C/D from apropriate aircraft serial number (which one I don't remember).

 

Or may be I wrong? :roll:

[D-Scythe]

What percentage of the F-15C fleet was fitted with JTIDS or FDL in the 1989 - 1994 timeframe? The fly-able aircraft, and that's what counts here, seem to be pretty consistently modelled in accordance with this setting (let's forget about the mysteries of the AI aircraft, they obviously do not follow a consistent scheme in this regard).

 

In that timeframe, JTIDS, the original fighter data link, was introduced in 18 390th FS F-15Cs from Mountain Home, which comprised of the latest batch of C-model Eagles ever. I think another squadron of F-15Cs, anything from 12-24 aircraft PAA, in Alaska were also fitted with JTIDS.

 

I'm actually not really sure what type of F-15C is modelled in the game, although I think that it would be an early model MSIP F-15C. For one, the AN/APG-70 radar is not modelled to its full extent, and the Lock On F-15C radar is more like an APG-63 with AIM-120 compatibility, TWS and NCTR rather than an APG-70.

 

And you guys are getting the MSIP stages mixed wrong. MSIP I was the MSIP program for the F-15A, while MSIP II was the upgrade for the F-15C (it may have been the other way around...). Nonetheless, MSIP I and II refer to the F-15 model being upgraded, and wasn't a specific stage assigned within the MSIP program (e.g. there would never be an MSIP I for an F-15C).

[SwingKid]

The F-15C closest to the one modelled in Lock On is from 1984.

 

84-0001 was the first Eagle with the MPCD and NCTR, still carrying the APG-63 radar, with no datalink.

 

However, this aircraft became the first MSIP II upgraded with APG-70 already on June 20, 1985, and other F-15Cs from 1984 immediately followed.

 

Fortunately, 1984 is also the same year that Su-27 first appeared in service. 8)

 

-SK

[Trident]

Thanks for the answers everyone. If that's the way things are looking I'd personnally advocate no data-link for the F-15C. Matt's other suggestions sound absolutely mouthwatering though :)

 

About the radar, I can see the reasons for upgrading to a 'proper' APG-70, however this would beg the question of AG-modes, as I asked in my first post. IMHO There's nothing wrong in giving the Eagle un-guided ground-attack capabilities (the MiG-29/Su-27 have/will have that too, afterall) but including the APG-70s mapping modes on an airframe that makes so little use of them seems like *far* more trouble than it's worth. So the next set of questions looks like this:

 

- Did the APG-70 installation on the F-15C include mapping modes? If not I'm all for including dumb AG-capabilities on the Eagle. The USAF may not have trained for it in RL, but simming is alot about what-if?-scenarios.

 

- The AG-modes were removed alltogether through software changes some time ago IIRC. Just when exactly did this happen? If mapping modes were present but removed along with the other ground-attack capabilities WITHIN the timeframe specified above they could simply be omitted in LOMAC.

 

- Does the APG-63v1 feature AG-modes? When was it introduced and are there F-15Cs with this radar, but no data-link? Depending on the answers the -63v1 could be another possible solution.

 

Disregarding things like the missing radar modes, ED's representation of the Eagle (even though it was a really rare variant in reality) seems pretty good if measured against the yard-stick of the actual average equipment & capability levels. Atleast at the time that the other fly-able aircraft versions seem to be stemming from and this is a good, consistent foundation to build on, IMHO.

[Olgerd]

- Does the APG-63v1 feature AG-modes? When was it introduced and are there F-15Cs with this radar, but no data-link? Depending on the answers the -63v1 could be another possible solution.

 

APG-63v1 AESA radar has not any AG-modes. It's main new feature (according to oficial sources) was the possibility to track such small and fast-speed targets as cruise missiles. Only 18 F-15C at Alyaska, about which we spoke above, are equipped with this radar.

As I read there are some plans of F-15 SPO to upgrade some number of aircrafts with APG-63v(2) and so to keep this aircraft in service up to 2020 year.

[SwingKid]

APG-63v1 AESA radar has not any AG-modes. It's main new feature (according to oficial sources) was the possibility to track such small and fast-speed targets as cruise missiles. Only 18 F-15C at Alyaska, about which we spoke above, are equipped with this radar.

 

No, this is APG-63(v)2 that you here describe.

 

APG-63(v)1 is not AESA, but rather the radar of the year 2000 which has similar capabilities to APG-70, because the parts for APG-70 are no longer manufactured.

 

-SK

[Olgerd]

Ahh, sorry. My mistake. :wink:

[169th_Jaws]

Swingkid, just thought of another thing while at work today. When in guns mode in the F-15, I'll often find that the cannon pipper will flicker when flying in the vertical. If I'm 90 degrees nose up or down it seems that the pipper seems to have trouble tracking. Is this something to do with the doppler shift radar or is it a bug? Cheers.

 

Just thought (if I may) bring this little one up again as I never got an educated answer from anyone. Thanks again.

[GGTharos]

The radar drops a contact when it's within 25kts of your speed (up OR down) and this is what's happening most likely.

[169th_Jaws]

Hmmmm I'm sure if it is. Why is it that this only ever happens in the vertical? Sure I get lock drops when in trail etc. but this appears to be something totally different.

[GGTharos]

I think you just get closer to co-speed in vertical maneuvers, that's all.

[169th_DedCat]

The one thing that gets me the most about the F-15's radar in LOMAC is the way if you roll left or right and change heading, contacts on your radar stay fixed in their originally detected positions. For example if you are in a right-hand turn and try to lock a contact that pops-up in the centre of the radar screen, you will be frustrated because the actual position of the contact is drifting left but the displayed contact remains fixed in the centre of the radar screen, until it fades away, or a new radar sweep detects the new instantaneous position of the contact.

 

I've never seen an American radar modeled like this in any other sim. IMHO the F-15's radar should be more like the Russian's in LOMAC with it's ability to give an accurate position on contacts, even when you are in a hard turn. If your heading is changing the radar should be intelligent enough to predict and update a contacts position on the radar screen. As a contact goes through it's three stage fade out on the F-15's radar they should be moving with respect to your own changes in range and heading and probably even the contacts originally detected speed and direction.

[GGTharos]

Minor problem: Target unlock does not release primary TWS contact.

[Skarp]

sry not sure if anyone mentioned this but the radar the f-15 in lomac uses is a late version of the APG-63. APG-70 is too recent to know it's specs and I think the f-22 will use the apg-70 ;)

[Kula66]

As a contact goes through it's three stage fade out on the F-15's radar they should be moving with respect to your own changes in range and heading and probably even the contacts originally detected speed and direction.

 

Agreed, there are those frantic attempts at re-acquiring a target after beaming ... sometimes the target is on the screen and you can't lock it, sometimes it just never reappears, no matter how much you scan up/down!!! Then the RWR goes off and you know you've got seconds to re-acquire, shoot and run! I think the BEST way to win in the F-15 is stay offensive!! Get an AMRAAM in the air ASAP!

 

James

[GGTharos]

There's no closure displayed when the gun mode is selected. Could we get closure while in gun mode?

[D-Scythe]

APG-70 is too recent to know it's specs and I think the f-22 will use the apg-70 ;)

 

Absolutely not. You need to get some facts straight:

 

1) You are indeed right in that LOMAC seems to have the APG-63 modelled, but not because the AGP-70 is too new. Despite still offering outstanding performance, the -70 is probably older than your average high school student.

 

2) The APG-63 in Lock On has NCTR and TWS, both which are features of the APG-70. So the radar is more like an MSIP radar hybrid of the -63/70.

 

3) The F-15C has two new radars available to it: the APG-63V1 and -63V2. Both are not modelled at all in Lock On.

 

4) The F/A-22 uses the APG-77, not the APG-70.

 

Since the F-15C in Lock On resembles more of an MSIP F-15C IRL, the case is made that the radar modelled should be the APG-70 with its full specs (or at least a fair representation of them).

[Skarp]

Absolutely not. You need to get some facts straight:

 

1) You are indeed right in that LOMAC seems to have the APG-63 modelled, but not because the AGP-70 is too new. Despite still offering outstanding performance, the -70 is probably older than your average high school student.

 

2) The APG-63 in Lock On has NCTR and TWS, both which are features of the APG-70. So the radar is more like an MSIP radar hybrid of the -63/70.

 

3) The F-15C has two new radars available to it: the APG-63V1 and -63V2. Both are not modelled at all in Lock On.

 

4) The F/A-22 uses the APG-77, not the APG-70.

 

Since the F-15C in Lock On resembles more of an MSIP F-15C IRL, the case is made that the radar modelled should be the APG-70 with its full specs (or at least a fair representation of them).

 

umm it's fact that the f-15 in lomac uses a later version of apg-63 that has tws. thank you for correcting me it was APG-77 not 70. the f-18 should be using the apg-70 since it can lock targets that are on the ground. but some f-15cs are getting the apg-77.

 

stormin stated that in lomac the f-15c uses the later version of the APG-63.

 

do you know the specs for the apg-70?

[D-Scythe]

umm it's fact that the f-15 in lomac uses a later version of apg-63 that has tws.

 

No, that's not the case. In the F-15C, the only version of the AN/APG-63 that has TWS is the APG-63V1, and this radar came AFTER the APG-70. This is because by the time the original APG-63 started breaking down and needed replacement, Raytheon closed the production line for the APG-70 radar, so they decided to upgrade the -63 to a newer version that is actually more versatile than the APG-70. (I think that's how the story goes).

 

Thus, to model an APG-63 with TWS realistically would require a radar that is even more advanced than the APG-70, which is certainly *not* the case in Lock On.

 

thank you for correcting me it was APG-77 not 70. the f-18 should be using the apg-70 since it can lock targets that are on the ground. but some f-15cs are getting the apg-77.

 

Again, not true. For the most part, the radar in western fighters are unique to that line of fighters. So the F/A-18 would NOT be able to use the APG-70, because it is unique to the F-15 series of fighters. Also, virtually all U.S. modern radars (APG-63/65/66/69/70/71/77) equipped for fighters can 'lock' (I use this term loosely) targets on the ground, not just the APG-70.

 

stormin stated that in lomac the f-15c uses the later version of the APG-63.

 

I thought he stated that the radar was an MSIP hybrid, something of a cross between the APG-63 and the -70. In any case, it's definitely not the full spec APG-70, as then we're talking about some cutting edge technology here. Even the basic functions of the F-15 radar in Lock On is guessed rather than a concrete value, such as NCTR, HOJ, and burn-through.

 

do you know the specs for the apg-70?

 

No. And if I did, I won't be allowed to tell you ;) But in Desert Storm, the full spec F-15C Eagles with the APG-70 were tracking Iraqi MiGs running to Iran at 200-300 ft across the ground from ranges up to 80 miles out. In Lock On, you'd be lucky to get a hit on your VSD from 80 nm.

[GGTharos]

In GF1, F-15C's were shooting at landing MiG-25's (low speed) at 10' ... its all about clutter ejection, the problem here is with the glint which can cause the missile not to guide directly onto the aircraft.

 

Either way, I'd love to see the advanced stuff in LOMAC's F-15C, though for now it's ok as it is. Dechnically speaking it should have a tremendous advantage over the MiG AFAIK insofar as detection range goes, for example, but given circumstances it seems to be about the same (Ie it seems that the MiG's radar, being less powerful, detects the bigger F-15 at the same time the F-15's more powerful radar detects the MiG. This is in a look-down scenario for the 15, so perhaps that's causeing some problems)

 

Either way, these ranges, according to something things I've heard, aren't too bad.

[D-Scythe]

In GF1, F-15C's were shooting at landing MiG-25's (low speed) at 10' ... its all about clutter ejection, the problem here is with the glint which can cause the missile not to guide directly onto the aircraft.

 

I don't think so. Only two MiG-25s were shot down by U.S. F-15Cs in Desert Storm, and both were achieved in the only true turning fight of the war. To get in close, the MiGs exploited the doppler weakness in the APG-70 radar from long range, beaming the U.S. fighters and banishing their locks. They then dove low and managed to sneak within visual range before the Eagles reaqcuired and gave chase. After some turns, the first MIG was downed easily by an AIM-7 Sparrow missile, while the other F-15 was parked squarely on the surviving Foxbat's six, which by this time was fleeing north, Several AIM-9s were fired, all decoyed by flares, and the Eagles together only managed to down the MiG after the second or third Sparrow, so I've heard.

 

The MiGs were definitely not landing.

 

The F-15s, dangerously low on fuel, then sped south, and then the second part of this turning fight occured, when two MiG-29s sneaked up from the side of two more F-15Cs covering their friends' retreat, who's attention was focused a bit further north. They managed to close to 13 miles before AWACs finally gave the heads up. Naturally, the F-15 pilots were furious, as they were well within Alamo range, and I'm positive one of them was Captain Rodgriguez, a former A-10A pilot now a Lt. Col with three kills credited to him. Anyway, in the ensuing dogfight, one of the MiGs was downed by a Sparrow and the other flown into the ground.

 

These two battles combined accounted for the only true turning fight of GF1.

[GGTharos]

I said shooting at, never said they were shot down, did I? ;)

 

The AIM-7's landed around 10' away from the landing MiGs and the damage caused, if any, was unknown.

[D-Scythe]

:D Okay sure, but for the record, I never heard of that incident

 

;)