I suck at shooting the gun! HELP!

[Bog9y]

You're trying to throw a bunch of golf balls into a small backyard pool from 1/3 of a mile away while running a 6-second mile.

 

 

Nobody said it was easy :)

 

 

AD

 

Yeah, fair point. I think it's just my pilot mentality. I get a bit frustrated when I don't see myself getting better after several sorties. I usually get better at things fairly quickly and can figure out where I went wrong. Analysing a BFM fight is tricky because it's so dynamic and I play on the just dogfighting server in multiplayer where it can become a furball very quickly, very often.

[TAW_Blaze]

Lol. Yeah it takes some getting used to. Keep it at speed and it will tear any other machine a new one. Its an energy fighter, not a groveller like the navy machines. Don't let them sucker you onto getting slow. You loose your great advantage and run into the AoA limiter like the above guy. You will also be real easy pickings for third party bandits.

 

So keep her fast and vertical. Slice em and dice em baby!

 

Except for the fact you get outrated by Hornets (or basically any other jet in DCS for that matter) cornering at 360-380 kts and sticking to your optimal 450 kt+ regime will gloc you in half a turn because of incorrect modeling of g effects currently.

 

Pure vertical or 70-80 degree bank climbs typically also only work if you start with a lot of excess energy and you usually have to convert back to horizontal otherwise you're severely off from your optimal turn performance after 1 vertical maneuver. On the way down usually you can control your speed but once you're down to corner on the bottom of your loop going for another vertical heavy maneuver is not really an option unless the bandit is extremely low energy state.

 

It's ridiculuous that you can't really sustain more than 7.5g for more than half a turn.

 

 

I don't get what people fight against thinking DCS Viper is good in DACT, basically every other competitor can completely trash it because the only regime where you have notable advantages is basically unusable due to incorrect g modeling. F-14 / F-18 is borderline unwinnable against a good opponent. F-15 is a bit better but typically still results in a loss due to the much better snapshot capability of the Eagle. I haven't fought much M2k or russian jets but I'd expect the same since they all have significantly better low speed handling characteristics and rate fighting < 400 kts they are comparable or better than an F-15.

[Bog9y]

Except for the fact you get outrated by Hornets (or basically any other jet in DCS for that matter) cornering at 360-380 kts and sticking to your optimal 450 kt+ regime will gloc you in half a turn because of incorrect modeling of g effects currently.

 

Pure vertical or 70-80 degree bank climbs typically also only work if you start with a lot of excess energy and you usually have to convert back to horizontal otherwise you're severely off from your optimal turn performance after 1 vertical maneuver. On the way down usually you can control your speed but once you're down to corner on the bottom of your loop going for another vertical heavy maneuver is not really an option unless the bandit is extremely low energy state.

 

It's ridiculuous that you can't really sustain more than 7.5g for more than half a turn.

 

 

I don't get what people fight against thinking DCS Viper is good in DACT, basically every other competitor can completely trash it because the only regime where you have notable advantages is basically unusable due to incorrect g modeling. F-14 / F-18 is borderline unwinnable against a good opponent. F-15 is a bit better but typically still results in a loss due to the much better snapshot capability of the Eagle. I haven't fought much M2k or russian jets but I'd expect the same since they all have significantly better low speed handling characteristics and rate fighting < 400 kts they are comparable or better than an F-15.

 

That is my exact problem every time i go against other jets!

The Mirage in a 1 circle fight is a losing game. It was for me at least unless I managed to force a reversal.

 

I started to play online to improve my dogfighting skills because the AI is so crap with their silly vertical movements and insane performance. But online against humans I always pray for an opponent in a Viper too so we have a level playing field.

[Bouli306]

Any good gunsight should be so instinctive that you do not need weeks of studying to use the symbology well. F-15 and F-14 does just that. Your HUD is clear and without any additional clutter tells you where the bandit is and where your bullets will go. The rest is up to the pilot.

 

In comparison in the 16 you have a worthless gun funnel that only gets exponentially worse during any kind of out of plane maneuvering, another set of supposed "wings level" marker that is equally worthless and only takes your attention away and eventually the smallest symbol in your HUD is actually where the bullets go. This is all in HUD reject mode, don't even get me started on all the further useless shit that you have by default..

 

Furthermore it's a garbage gun platform due to the AoA limit, you simply cannot take snapshots that other platforms can and most gun fights are ended by a snapshot not a tracking in plane shot.

 

You "sound" as someone knowledgeable...yet you aren't.

[TAW_Blaze]

You "sound" as someone knowledgeable...yet you aren't.

 

Whatever you say. I'm just realistically saying what the jet is like compared to the others that exist.

 

I see everyone here mumbling about what a great 2c fighter the Viper is at M0.7 to M0.85 and if you bleed your speed you're an idiot. Meanwhile the highest sustained g you can take is between 7.5 and 8 which gives you literally no vision and still comparably not that good turn rates. If you apply too much vertical either you are overspeeding to the point that your turn circle is a planet or you're bleeding too much speed to the point where you're not regaining it by the time you get down again resulting in trashcan performance once you exit the maneuver.

 

In the meantime other platforms are out rating you at lower speed laughing at resting g.

[TAW_Blaze]

That is my exact problem every time i go against other jets!

The Mirage in a 1 circle fight is a losing game. It was for me at least unless I managed to force a reversal.

 

I started to play online to improve my dogfighting skills because the AI is so crap with their silly vertical movements and insane performance. But online against humans I always pray for an opponent in a Viper too so we have a level playing field.

 

1c against a good Mirage is auto loss in every platform. The problem is you lose 2c against things where 2c should be your winning card.

[TAW_Blaze]

These are some very basic level sustained turn rates for 100% internal fuel, no load Viper / Hornet with the pylons installed ~ 100 ft ASL:

 

f-18 full fuel 100 ft, no load

- 360 kts 6g 17.5 deg/s

- 420 kts 7g 18.5 deg/s

- 460 kts 8g 17 deg/s

- 500 kts 8g 17.5 deg/s

 

f-16 full fuel 100ft, no load

- 370 kts 5.5g 16.5 deg/s

- 430 kts 6.5g 17 deg/s

- 470 kts 7.5g 17.5 deg/s

- 500 kts 8g 17 deg/s

 

I'm not saying that this is conclusive since it may vary with remaining fuel but it backs what I've experienced and heard from many friends.. you're losing by a pretty wide margin below 450 kts and above that you're restricted to 7.5 - 8 g otherwise you're glocing. This is the region where you have real 9g capability and where the jet would shine because the Hornet would most likely severely overbleed speed pulling 9 g while you can maintain yours.

[Top Jockey]

Although I'm not going to write anything you don't know already, this is my 2 cents.

 

Any good gunsight should be so instinctive that you do not need weeks of studying to use the symbology well. F-15 and F-14 does just that. Your HUD is clear and without any additional clutter tells you where the bandit is and where your bullets will go. The rest is up to the pilot.

 

In comparison in the 16 you have a worthless gun funnel that only gets exponentially worse during any kind of out of plane maneuvering, another set of supposed "wings level" marker that is equally worthless and only takes your attention away and eventually the smallest symbol in your HUD is actually where the bullets go. This is all in HUD reject mode, don't even get me started on all the further useless shit that you have by default..

 

I can see your point.

But one has to keep in mind that the F-16's EEGS really was a pioner concept... with all the pros and cons it has.

 

I see the F-14 and F-15's HUD symbology (gunsight) as cases of logic / ease of employment philosophy.

Whereas the F-16's I believe was more centered on precision aiming...

But I also agree that, when maneuvering it might become less instinctive to "read" and employ rapidly, particularly for beginners.

 

Furthermore it's a garbage gun platform due to the AoA limit' date=' you simply cannot take snapshots that other platforms can and most gun fights are ended by a snapshot not a tracking in plane shot.[/quote']

 

The F-16's particular flight model (considerably restrained in therms of AoA) is part of its very nature.

 

From early, one of the main advantages of the F-16 was its capabilty to 'travel around the circle' faster than the others (thanks to its high STR), and with a relatively small turn radius... and typicaly, against fighters of its era this was more than enough to compensate its low AoA limit.

 

However the new F-16 versions started to get heavier (thereby decreasing that STR capability), and against fighters with other capabilities (like the Hornet's high AoA and pitch rates), the F-16's main advantage started to dilute a bit.

 

The thing is: if you start to loose small bits of what was your main capability, eventually you'll end up disadvantaged.

I really would like ED to look to the F-16's flight model, as more and more people are mentioning the below expected STR.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Top Jockey

[Bog9y]

Well, last night I went on the Just Dogfighting server again and had a few more fights. In the 16 I was able to maneuver better by forcing a 2 circle fight, still, got shot down more often than me killing them.

 

I then switched to the F18 to see what that was like. It was MUCH easier! The things that made it easier :

 

- It does NOT black out as quickly as the F16. No, I wasn't pulling 9 Gs but I was able to get 7-8+ quite easily without even getting any tunnel vision. This allowed me to keep tally on the bandit and as such I could maneuver much better and get in a better postion, whether offensive or defensive.

 

- the HUD is much bigger compared to the F16 and the pipper seemed to be bigger too. Getting an accurate shot in was significantly easier in the Hornet

 

- I was able to force 1 and 2 circle fights without feeling disadvantaged.

 

 

Don't get me wrong...I was still getting shot down more often than me shooting others down. But leveling the playing field made it much better and felt fair.

 

I can see why a lot of people choose the F18 for dogfighting. I wonder if there will be many successful F16 fighters in the online championships?

[Top Jockey]

Well, last night I went on the Just Dogfighting server again and had a few more fights. In the 16 I was able to maneuver better by forcing a 2 circle fight, still, got shot down more often than me killing them.

 

I then switched to the F18 to see what that was like. It was MUCH easier! The things that made it easier :

 

- It does NOT black out as quickly as the F16. No, I wasn't pulling 9 Gs but I was able to get 7-8+ quite easily without even getting any tunnel vision. This allowed me to keep tally on the bandit and as such I could maneuver much better and get in a better postion, whether offensive or defensive.

 

- the HUD is much bigger compared to the F16 and the pipper seemed to be bigger too. Getting an accurate shot in was significantly easier in the Hornet

 

- I was able to force 1 and 2 circle fights without feeling disadvantaged.

 

 

Don't get me wrong...I was still getting shot down more often than me shooting others down. But leveling the playing field made it much better and felt fair.

 

I can see why a lot of people choose the F18 for dogfighting. I wonder if there will be many successful F16 fighters in the online championships?

 

Hello,

 

I believe you've seen already the several threads about:

- the F-16's flight model performance (in the sim) being below expected its real life capabilities, and;

- the Hornet (in the sim) on the other hand supposedly being slightly above real life performance.

 

edit

 

This has been talked for a while now, because I really believe that something is off (even if only a little bit) with the F-16 flight model, as this aircraft was built from the start to excel at dogfighting... whereas in the sim that ain't showing as it should.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=255421

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258416

Edited May 7, 2020 by Top Jockey

[Bog9y]

Yes, I have but it was interesting to see it from the F18 side and actually see how it performs. I wonder if ED will do anything about the discrepancies in performance?