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Allow silkworm to launch without target.


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Currently the silkworm missile can only launch at a detected target. Given the 200km range of the missile and the relatively poor range of its silkworm radar, I can, at best, take advantage of half of this range.

 

So, what I would like is to be able to trigger a missile launch either:

 

In a specific direction

At a defined target point where it will activate its radar

At a defined target point at where it will turn to a new heading and activate its radar (like harpoon WP) -- this is the preferred method since it allows multi-vector raids.

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Why would you want to launch the missile without a valid target?

Am I missing something here?

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That doesn't sound very realistic. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with silkworm TT&PS, but if you could launch without radar detection, what's the sense of having a radar? Especially when the radar data is the only info the crews have available to determine if there's anything to even launch on.

 

Perhaps the better solution is first see if your radar is emplaced correctly, and if the deficiency can be traced back to an artificially curtailed radar performance, the solution would be to come up with the data needed to improve the radar, rather than implement an unrealistic mode of operation for the missile. Of course, it is possible perhaps that missile performance outstrips the radar in real life as well, I couldn't say for certain

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Why would you want to launch the missile without a valid target?

Am I missing something here?

Maybe because the information about the target location is provided by someone else who has a BIGGER radar or other sources of intel.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I´ve been making some tests.

 

In order to fire an ASM, for example a salvo of 6 P-500 from the Moskva cruiser OTH, we need a OTH radar.

 

First I tried with the most logical plane; TU-142 as a recon.

No joy. The enemy ships are displayed in the F10 map and the ASM can only be launched IF the player shoot manually, using the assign target.

 

BUT, using an AWACS (A-50), ships are located AND the Moskva launches the P-500.

 

Tweaking the TU-142 LUA and adding the value AWACS, and doing the same test, the 142 detect and transmit the data and the ships engage OTH.

 

Maybe ED could tweak the RECON tag to achieve the same results as the AWACS tag. Mainly because the radar of the 142 is coded as SurfaceSearch in the dbsensors.

With this adjust to the tag "RECON", we wiil be able to use SH60 or KA-27 as radar picket helos.... well the KA-27 mujst be redone, because it lacks any radar.

 

And yes, the P-500 engage at 400km, the KH-41 at 200km and P-700 at 400km.


Edited by Tarres
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I´ve been making some tests.

 

In order to fire an ASM, for example a salvo of 6 P-500 from the Moskva cruiser OTH, we need a OTH radar.

 

First I tried with the most logical plane; TU-142 as a recon.

No joy. The enemy ships are displayed in the F10 map and the ASM can only be launched IF the player shoot manually, using the assign target.

 

BUT, using an AWACS (A-50), ships are located AND the Moskva launches the P-500.

 

Tweaking the TU-142 LUA and adding the value AWACS, and doing the same test, the 142 detect and transmit the data and the ships engage OTH.

 

Maybe ED could tweak the RECON tag to achieve the same results as the AWACS tag. Mainly because the radar of the 142 is coded as SurfaceSearch in the dbsensors.

With this adjust to the tag "RECON", we wiil be able to use SH60 or KA-27 as radar picket helos.... well the KA-27 mujst be redone, because it lacks any radar.

 

And yes, the P-500 engage at 400km, the KH-41 at 200km and P-700 at 400km.

 

 

If the target is "donated" on launch by the AWACS, I would be really interested in knowing what the RWR will output. (And what it should output).

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Tested with Iran as launcher and Rusia (A-50) Awacs. Target engaged OTH.

 

@Deadpool, the missile is launched without having a radar contact by the silkworm radar. So you have only signal that an AWACS is in the zone and spike from the Styx radar when engaged.

 

It colud be better with the recon label, but for now only works with the AWACS label.

I´ve modded the TU-142 to make use of the surface search radar (and not the AS/SS of the A-50) as an awacs,

Due to elevaiton limits, airplanes are not detected... well sort of..

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That doesn't sound very realistic. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with silkworm TT&PS, but if you could launch without radar detection, what's the sense of having a radar?

 

For a self-detection?

 

You can check yourself about the range for horizon calculation: http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

 

So lets say that you have your radar 15m above the sea level, and you are targeting a target that's height is 35 meters. Now your radar horizon is 40 kilometres and visual horizon 34 kilometres.

 

If you would set your radar up to 50 meters, now you have slightly longer engagement range, 53 kilometres for radar and 46 kilometres for visual.

 

How high you would need to place your radar to detect a target, lets say at 100 km distance?

336 meters.

How are you going to get your radar with the launchers at that altitude? Sure there exist the balloon attachments, helicopters and all kind things...

 

But here we are back to the original point. You don't need to have that radar connected to the launchers itself by any means.

 

 

Especially when the radar data is the only info the crews have available to determine if there's anything to even launch on.

 

That is the limitation of the DCS itself, as we do not have a communication networks modeled what so ever. There is a artificial (virtual) where group knows what one unit in the group knows. Depending the unit AI skill level, they react to the threat at little various speeds. So if example a group of 10 tanks is positioned so that one of the tanks detects a enemy helicopter by it flying inside the detection ring (again, hard coded) then in X seconds all the tanks in group turns their turrets toward threat. It can be 2 seconds or 5 seconds, but it is the "Enemy spotted, I make a radio call!" kind thing inside the group.

 

Now place two groups next to each others and there is nothing informing the second group from the enemy if any of its units is going to make the detection as well.

 

If you place a one launcher on the shore, it is completely alone. It needs to work completely alone all from the detection to the launch. So of course it has nothing to use.

Why the systems are networked, so when a any unit with communication capability performs a detection, they radio it to network. They give their own coordinates (if not already known) and then the spotted enemy coordinates as off-set.

 

So you can have a helicopter flying with an radar well above the horizon to detect sea targets, then when they do, they report their location, target location and defense people calculate the solution for the target.

 

It is just routing a path from A to B either directly or via couple way-points, and off the missile goes.

The missile doesn't need to see anything, not to know anything about was the contact made with radar or was it just even a seaman sitting in a rowing boat middle of a sea with binoculars, radio and GPS.

Missile only task is to know how long it needs to fly at what given directions and then when to activate its own radar. And how long it will keep scanning the area in given heading to detect targets, until it makes decision that what target to be selected as main target where to fly. And then missile doesn't care anything else than going toward that, when its proximity/impact/timed fuze will tell "Go boom!".

 

 

Perhaps the better solution is first see if your radar is emplaced correctly, and if the deficiency can be traced back to an artificially curtailed radar performance, the solution would be to come up with the data needed to improve the radar, rather than implement an unrealistic mode of operation for the missile. Of course, it is possible perhaps that missile performance outstrips the radar in real life as well, I couldn't say for certain

 

To do this thing, we need information like:

 

1) What information can be programmed to the missile (what information it requires?).

Like can you input a distance/time and heading to the missile where to fly where it activates the own radar. Example "Course 113 degrees 41 seconds" or "Course 113 degrees 42000 meters".

Or does it really need an automatic information from the radar itself, so there is no way that information can be inputted via targeting terminal.

 

2) What kind flight profile there is possible to be selected, is it automatic or do you select some profiles or you input them yourself?

 

3) Does the missile accept the multiple waypoints so you can get it to fly first to southside of the target and then turn at it from behind, or is it just one straight direction?

 

4) What kind capabilities you have for the fuzing? Smaller targets might need a proximity fuze, while large targets works with impact fuze. Do you set a delayed fuze so missile flies deeper to hull or does it explode immediately on impact?

 

5) What is the missile seeker capabilities. Gimbal limit, scan speed, resolution, detection sensitivity, targeting logic (first target, nearest target, largest target, center target etc) and so on.

 

As in any artillery, when you come to the firing position, you will need to know your own location. Then you calculate what is your reach and where you can engage at given accuracy and time. You might make a some pre-calculated target zones for a fixed known positions so when you are called for the firing at those positions you don't need to do any calculations as you just set the parameters and you shoot.

 

Same thing is with the coastal defense systems. You inform your location, you inform your capability to strike at given areas and given time and then you wait that someone gives you a target in those parameters.

 

For a coastal defense system that can launch a missile only with a direct line of sight and only up to 10 kilometers or so is fairly limited one, or only by using own radar without capability to use any other source for coordinates.

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